On 12th July 2017, I attended an invitation only event organised by John Rees Evans, in which he spoke about his vision of Direct Democracy (DD) for UKIP and for the country. In my view, the event was overly and inappropriately ‘presidential’ in nature and only attended by, perhaps, 80 people. I didn’t count them but the venue was quite small and there were many empty seats.
He announced his intention to stand, once again, for the party leadership but, other than that, his presentation was pretty much what he says regularly about DD and still omitted what is, for me, the important aspect of how it would work in practice. As you might imagine, the room was overwhelmingly supportive, but there were a few too many ‘cheerleaders’ for my political liking, and I was left with the distinct impression that I was not alone in having no idea how John’s view of DD would be integrated into the British political landscape, nor how we might get from where we are now to where we would want to be.
As it happens, no country in the world uses DD in its entirety, though one approximates it: Switzerland. At the end of the day, DD can never be used for every government decision and in Switzerland the principles of DD are integrated into the constitutional processes and the net result is a lot more referendums. As for the efficacy and practicalities of greater elector involvement, it seems to work. Switzerland is a stable and highly functional democracy with the bonus that its government is mandated to routinely gain the support of the people for federal legislation. If John’s ideas of DD are to be based upon the Swiss model, I’ve never heard him say so; if they are to be different then it’s time to lay that out in detail.
So, how should we get from where we are now to a political system that incorporates some DD?
Even in a DD perfect scenario, a political infrastructure still exists. By that I mean that there is still a parliament and a second chamber which, by definition, need a process by which they can be populated. In the UK we know that process as FPTP (First Past The Post), which is always used in general elections, and we have become used to the incompetent and self-serving governments it regularly produces. Let us make no mistake, our long-standing system of electing governments is a limiting factor in our nation’s development, manifested by our practice of routinely switching from one set of ideologies to another. It is combative and not co-operative, reinforces extreme opinion, is overly concerned with its own electoral projections and, all in all, a relic of the past. This much is certain, it must change.
My reading into John’s presentation is that, were we to present this revolutionary vision of DD to the British people, they would flock to our cause and elect a UKIP government which would then set about implementing it.
I have to say that I believe such a scenario to be unlikely. However, there is nothing like improbable and unrealistic assertions, passionately delivered, to elicit raucous encouragement and support from the home crowd.
He may well have underestimated the complexities of presenting an, as yet, incomplete formulation of an unfamiliar system to an audience, largely not minded to listen too closely. The existing electoral and governance system, whilst dysfunctional, benefits those in power and, as such, they are unlikely to want to change. It is doubtful that, in any meaningful timescale, a complex concept such as DD could ever attract enough support by itself without one or more enabling political phases, by way of stepping stones.
I do believe we need to change the way we are governed and, in any change process, it is extremely helpful to begin with a known environment then add a visible and understandable link to another environment. Quite simply, start with what people already know then connect that to something new in an understandable way. To move from one system to a completely different ‘other’ system, without linking the steps of familiarity, is significantly harder and probably unachievable in an electoral sense.
It is this stage process that is missing in the manifesto of John Rees Evans but the interim stage does already exist, it just needs to be a part of the plan.
The factor of ‘partial success’ should also feature in all change processes. In other words, were the eventual objective not to be achieved, would the stages in that process still be independently beneficial? For example, if a change process incorporates steps 1 to 10, if step 10 is not reached, does the whole thing collapse? Alternatively, would stage 1, in itself, be a valuable step forward, regardless of whether or not stage 2 was achieved?
We do need to change our governance and an independent and necessary first step would be to change the voting system to a more representative one. I have form in this with the voting system I designed, F2PTP (First Two Past The Post) www.makevotescount.co.uk , which is also a major platform in my leadership campaign. Not only would a fairer voting system make DD more achievable but, in itself, would represent a major step forward in co-operative governance, which is a concept already well understood by most people.
Sometimes you don’t go straight to chairman of the board, you have to work your way up. My suggestion to John is that he embrace voting reform as the first stage on the journey to the DD revolution. They are not mutually exclusive concepts.
Can I suggest a simple stepping stone to DD from what we have.
UKIP needs to bang on and on and on and ON about Proportional Representation. After not too long media attention will ensure it’s mainstream to talk about it. The main, smallish stumbling stone will be “but we already had a vote on PR it was defeated”, and we answer immediately that No,that was AV, not PR.
Under FPTP, UKIP hasn’t a cat’s chance in Battersea Dog’s Home of winning MPs, the odd Tory Carswell-type carpetbagger notwithstanding, our voter support is too evenly spread across 650 constituencies. The other main parties have several constituency-centred areas of support which of course works under FPTP.
PR is the most democratic parliamentary system because as soon as an MP is elected to Westminster they are in a party numbers game. And so if your party wins 25 percent of the popular vote you get 25 percent of the MPs. What could be more democratic? Under the simplest form of PR, such as practiced in Netherlands which I am most in favour of, UKIP would be sitting on about 12 MPs at the last GE.
This first step continues use of the current Westminster chambers, people can thus relate to that. Perhaps stage 2 would be national referenda on major issues – how about the first one is asking if taxpayers are willing to pay more on the Standard Rate to save all our public services? The Tories should love that, it takes the blame off them for tax rises which are of course against their religion.
Within UKIP, there are just so many things that need reform, it could be argued we need to start again on the whole structure of the party as many other have said. I’m in favour of bringing back the Members Forum structured so we can all vote on at least the main issues within UKIP. And it would provide at least one way to communicate with the ivory tower people at the top of our party.
I think best keep FPTP. Winner takes all is best for tackling the issues ahead. UKIP can succeed under FPTP. PR would have been good say 50 years ago to keep nation on right track. Now PR would mean endless compromise in government and nothing effective getting done. UKIP can be a strong influence even without winning a seat as the threat from UKIP bounced the tories into an EU referendum.
Well, I’m sorry but I think we’ve seen the last of any ConLab landslide victory. When was the last time either was able to Win an election properly?
Compromise is something we do well in Britain, and it stops LabCon lurching us from traditional Left to traditional Right every five years, each desperate to get in as much as possible before they get kicked out at the next GE.
UKIP is easy to be sidelined in importance because we never have any proper MPs, so “they” can say no-one wants us. That’s how they do it Max.
I did NOT join a permanently sidelined pressure group 7 years ago. We MUST have PR otherwise UKIP is destined to be a historical blip.
PS – how do you envisage we can be successful under FPTP?
Hi Rob. The demographics are the key for me. PR means we lose control of our nation earlier than FPTP. FPTP buys us more time. The plan is UKIP under AMW replace labour as the tories main opposition. Get loads of MPs. PR is the way for a homogeneous society though.
Sorry I’m still failing to understand your logic. Perhaps I’m dense!
It’s precisely the demographics which prevent UKIP getting any seats under FPTP simply because our support is so evenly spread out. In 2015 we harvested 4 million votes, virtually all wasted!
How does our domestic FPTP system affect control of our nation?
“Get loads of MPs” – ok, how? Even under Farage’s magic touch we just scraped together 2 Tory carpetbaggers.
Having met AMW and been very impressed by her clear fortitude, I look forward to the local leadership hustings here in Norwich next month to see what other candidates say, some are I believe NEC members.
By homogeneous I take it you agree we need to get off the Left-Right seesaw?
Hi Rob. The way I see things. If UKIP get say 36% of vote then we have a chance of forming a government under FPTP. This was the winning % of vote for the Conservatives in 2010 and 2015. Under PR with that vote we would be ostracised and excluded from government by a coalition of the rest. Like in the Netherlands where no one will work with Geert Wilders. Even with a huge 45% share our opponents would seek to exclude UKIP under PR.
I agree that PR would get UKIP off to a good start in boosting poll ratings as voting UKIP would no longer be a wasted vote. But UKIP would need to get over 50% of vote or lead a coalition.
I am open to reason and discussion on this matter – maybe we can put together a coalition of nationalists and patriots from the DUP and SNP and Plaid Cymru.
Hmmm. I now understand your reasoning Max. But I will have to respectfully disagree with your conclusions.
UKIP has managed to change a lot of things simply by banging on about them. The Westminster parties do not operate in vacuo, if there is a public groundswell of opinion on an issue UKIP could swing the day – we’re very good at that. Coupled with the self-evident political gravitas by simply having our own MPs, I am convinced of it. There will be MPs of other parties seeing the way the wind is blowing on. say, issue X.
The LibLabCon Westminster parties initial launch into MPs is lost in history, though Labour were doubtless rocketed into the HoC by having humongous numbers of supporters heavily concentrated in relatively small areas such as the South Wales coalfields. Trying to get the 36% of the pop vote as you suggest may be enough to reach that golden threshold level even if we are spread evenly, I haven’t done the maths on it, but I have to say I am dubious that it can be achieved in any reasonable timeframe.
You obviously put a lot of thought into things Max and I enjoy debating with you. Perhaps you have a good point of discussion re. a coalition of nationalists? ‘m a great believer in an English Parliament, but a discussion for another thread perhaps…
Yes Rob. We will wait and see what position the new leader takes. All of the nations of the democratic West have ended up going down same road of weakening the nation state and going multi-cultural – whatever form of electoral system they have.
The former Warsaw Pact nations have resisted these trends. They had no democracy for 2 generations. So maybe universal suffrage is not such a good idea?
Yes let’s leave this discussion for another thread.
It is obvious from reading this piece that Allen is no friend of Rees Evans. Whilst Rees Evens is not every ones cup of tea he should be allowed to stand and not be filtered out by the NEC as was the case last time
Everyone should be allowed to stand, it’s the only way to be seen to be fair – members aren’t stupid – we do not need to be dictated to from above, we are capable of making,up our own minds – we do have them, Messrs Crowther and Oaken, in fact, UKIP might have done better if you had ever listened to any of us instead of pig heatedly going along with your own agenda. You both are very lucky anyone has stuck it this far, but it won’t always be so.
Noel Mathews is the new head of IT for the party…. Massive task when most systems we hahve in place ar very expensive and not fit for purpose…..he does not think DD in this party will ever get off the ground….
Dear Stephen Place,
You say “most systems we have in place are very expensive and not fit for purpose”.
I was on the NEC when we installed Subscriber, supplied by Dataware. I took up references on Dataware and they were the best references I had ever seen in my life.
Working for me, John Youles reviewed the software and reported that it was good. And it has been good, I believe.
We added an extra subroutine to inform branches overnight of new members, a much needed improvement.
If it turns out that Subscriber is expensive or not fit for purpose….. you can blame me.
Regards, Toby, 01932-873557
Interesting mention of John Youles Toby. I have known John for many years in our local branch, Norwich, he did mention to me about being involved in some database software, so now I know what!
I have to say that I am unimpressed by this article.
Firstly it fails to acknowledge the longstanding clarity of JRE’s plans for direct democracy within UKIP, which he has been talking about and actioning since before the last leadership campaign.
E.g. The link below is from November 2016:
http://johnreesevans.uk/
Also, in my opinion, the piece fails to do justice to the structure, scale and detail of JRE’s launch speech.
For example, there’s no mention of UKIP Direct, UKIP Connect, UKIP Media, UKIP Affiliate etc. and the associated plans and ideas etc; but there appears to be plenty of rather irrelevant, off-topic, personal thoughts and speculation from a rival candidate.
However, anyone who hasn’t seen the speech can judge for themselves from the link below:
Sorry, I should have mentioned that on the first link it’s necessary to scroll down to “How JRE will implement Direct Democracy within UKIP.”
Howard, it will appeal to all of us, but the wider public? I don’t think they’re ready for it. Who will John be, in the public eyes, what will he stand for?
Dee,
JRE said there was only one person that he would stand aside for. And that person was Nigel Farage.
So broadly, on policies, I think he will stand for Nigel’s main views; and that should become clear to the public.
In addition, I hope both he and Nigel will listen to Anne Marie on all matters Islamic.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QUlr8Am4zQ0
David, I think the ideal way to trial Direct Democracy is inside UKIP, and to offer it to members so that it can be refined if necessary along the way. Let’s see how many join the party because of it.
However much I respect John, I just don’t see the average man and woman getting home from work, sorting the kids then logging into a discussion about the next policy they would like to propose, argue for and so on.
I believe most people simply want a Leader who will put forward policies they agree with, will speak up for them fearlessly and not obviously speaking to please whatever audience is at hand.
I don’t understand why people inside UKIP can’t understand that we collapsed for many reasons in the last General Election – but I believe the main one was that we were shambolic in every way. Were people really going to believe that integration would happen once we banned the burka? It hasn’t happened anywhere. People in Luton, Bradford and Tower Hamlets to name just a few can see with their own eyes that communities there have no intention of integrating – they frequently say and proclaim loudly that they actually want to take over. What we have to do is roll back ALL the tools of Islamification by applying British Law – so no halal, no radical mosques, no returning jihadis, no multiple marriages/houses/benefits, no child marriage and it has to be explained, even to some in UKIP, that the reason for the hijab and burka was that Mohammed wanted to signal to his followers which were the virtuous women of Allah who shouldn’t be molested, and which were ‘fair game’. UKIP never were serious about addressing Islam – and it is the ideology of Islam that needs addressing.
Yesterday on,this site Tomaz gave links to Anne Marie’s friend and ex-Muslim Iranian – one can see how Anne has arrived at where she now is – she was addressing,the danger of Sharia long before the rest of us. She had courage then, and as things have got worse in Britain her courage has increased. She has been called a Cultural Marxist because she refused to speak on a platform with a homophobic holocaust denier – to my mind, that is simply the courage to recognize that while everyone is entitled to voice their opinion, it can’t be pandered to and given a platform – it isn’t Cultural Marxism – if it is, I’m one!
I was not aware that Anne Marie had ‘no platformed’ someone. If so, that would be the end of my support. If UKIP does not stand for free speech for all, however disagreeable, then it stands for nothing. Extreme political correctness is just one example of where we end up when someone follows this line of thinking. How ironic when those who have ‘no platformed’ in turn become victims of ‘no platforming’.
Hi Garrie. AMW did tweet that she supported the right to free speech. It was a personal decision not to share a platform with the person holding the controversial views. It wasn’t about seeking to prevent the views being expressed. I think she was just speaking for herself and did not try to pressurise organisers – from the tweets.
No politican is perfect. AMW is widening debate. Don’t know about repealing any of the recent free speech restricting legislation. I better check the manifestos.
There are various taboo issues that all politicians keep away from to remain credible with the voters and electable. AMW is taking debate into areas most/all other politicians consider controversial and taboo – political correctness is being rolled back here.
She said she wasn’t happy with his views, which the organizers had been unaware of. A homophobic holocaust denier was perhaps not an ideal speaker at a Gay led march – so they decided not to use him.
“homophobic holocaust denier” – you haven’t let slip you’re a plant after all, have you Dee? Or have you been indoctrinated from spending too much time watching the Beeb
No, John, I just read his tweets. However, yesterday he put out an apology and asked that it be RT’d, saying that those views were then and he had now changed into a grown-up – so I dutifully re tweeted because fair enough if that is so – still the MSM would have had a field day with those original tweets.
I NEVER watch the BBC except occasionally for the weather, and,that’s often wrong!
Incidentally, I’d love to know who you think has planted me?!
Due to the unprecedented scale of propaganda and false history we have faced all our lives peoples opinions will be all over the place as gradually realise what is going on behind the story presented by the media.
Most weight is to be placed on a persons current stated opinion with a free pass to change as they become enlightened. And maximum leeway for young men as they learn.
Mind you I reckon Dee planted here to drop red pills on us.
Maximus, if you get to read this, I still don’t understand the red pill/blue pill thing! Is it good or bad if I’m doing what you say?!
Hi Dee.
It was my attempt at being playful. Red pill = someone who tells the truth and explains what is really going on and not taken in by the media’s propaganda.
All the best to you.
Thanks, Maximus, at last I understand it! Cheers! x
Yes, that’s what happened.
Free speech for everyone!.. erm well until they say things I personally don’t like, then they should be silenced or ideally prosecuted.
We must be free to question everything!.. erm well until someone wishes to question the details about a certain historical event, then they should be silenced or ideally prosecuted.
This is quite simply the modus operandi of the marxist left.
Also “homophobic”, is the language of marxist left.
He’s more than homophobic. He says all gays should be killed.
Perhaps the Marxist Left uses the term ‘homophobic’ but it was invented by gay men. It originslly meant a closeted man with a horror of his OWN homosexuality, who punished other gay men for it, often violently. At the time (1970s?) gay men reported meeting many dangerous characters exactly like that. It was nothing to do with heterosexuals approving or disapproving of gay people but alwayd implied the homophobic person was covering up their own homosexuality.
Lauren.
Who this event invites to speak has nothing to do with UKIP.
Not liking and strongly objecting to an opinion are valid positions and not the same as banning. If we are writing about AMW here then I have seen no evidence of calls to silence or prosecute people for views she doesn’t like.
But I am evidence and facts driven so.
Also we are talking about views and opinions that are way outside the overton window of what is acceptable. So I would expect any politician to seek to distance themselves.
Really Lauren? I thought it meant anti- gay – sorry, I will amend to anti-gay – do you not see a tiny bit of – is it irony? – in your policing of language I use?
Dear Dee,
You say “I believe most people simply want a Leader who will put forward policies they agree with, will speak up for them fearlessly … “.
I agree.
Regards, Toby, 01932-873557
I believe our vote collapsed due to Mays appalling manifesto with UKIP supporters going to Labour to show their displeasure and of course to decisions not to stand in many seats. We now need a radical new leader like Waters or Rees Evens but NEC will stop them as I don’t believe it is democratic
My understanding of JRE was that his vision of DD started within ukip, giving members a voice, building membership and funding as per five star?
I read his speech and thought it was more about building a Party aiming for government, that relied on member input via DD, to keep its leadership responsive to its supporters.
Have I missed something?
What is he going to present to the public, is what I’m interested in. Policies? I love John, but we need policies to put out there, not policies argued over and then chosen by the NEC – especially the current NEC.
DD is a way for candidates to fool their supporters into thinking all of their views will be listened to, it’s LibDem focus group baloney and saves the candidate from having to express an opinion. But what UKIP once thrived on was REAL LEADERSHIP from Nigel Farage, the man who once had crystal clear views on the evil EU and the guts to say so out loud. Unfortunately many years of being shouted down and paid well by the EU has caused our hero, and most other UKIP MEPs to forget why they came here and so we need a new LEADER. Not a feeble focus group fool.
DD would work if it is restricted only to the most important decisions, within and outside the party. Better to have a way for branches to vote at meetings or by contacting chairmen and for the results to be passed on to the leader and policy makers via areas. We need to remember that even in leadership elections, only a minority of paid up members bother to vote. There is a danger here that policy could be driven by a small number of activists with their own agendas.
You will be interested, then, in my article on leadership later this week. And, by the way, a more democratic approach seems to work in Switzerland.
Good point, The candidate that can get constituencies to get their members to bother to vote will do well.
Too slow, David.
Of course we want PR. And of course we want referenda.
But the way to get them is not slowly, or incrementally, but INDIRECTLY, ie through other issues. And the big one is the economy, because it’s that which affects people’s lives the most. It’s long been sound and accepted wisdom that it’s the economy that determines elections, yet we seem determined to want to ignore that truth.
By the way, it’s also our policy to abolish the House of Lords. Just like that. Hooray!
Bravo – it’s the economy stupid! Now we just have to find a candidate who a) understands that b)is tough enough to stand his or her ground and see the right heads roll at HQ and who is prepared to LEAD us
Yes Quercus but there are other issues coming down the line that will affect peoples lives even more. The rules of elections may be about to change. Economy to be trumped by existenial threats as main issue.
I think the time has come for our survival as a nation to be the main issue. The focus needs to be on selling that to the people. But I expect you are much more experienced than me in debating with the voters and more in touch with the zeitgeist etc so maybe I am 5 or 10 years too early ?
No, Maximus – while we clutch our pearls and worry about subtlety and inclusiveness more and more people are understanding that we are in the fight of our lives for our culture and way of life – young working class understand it – they are educating themselves on Islam – encouraged by each other and led by Tommies Robinson and English. It’s very heartening, but they need a Party to vote for.
What I don’t get Dee is why they have protest marches in Sunderland but when they have a chance to change our rulers they go and vote labour in the election. Wasted vote as doesn’t keep the tories out and labour not represent their interests. Paul Nutall’s UKIP was there for them.
Could it be ‘cultural takeover’ ahem postal voting? I am fairly sure the young people I see on Twitter Periscope etc are definitely not voting Labour. Probably not voting at all, they have no faith in UKIP recently, and who can blame them?
Incidentally Steve Unwin (who he?) says the candidate list will be ‘significantly different’ in August.
Paul, although likable, was not leadership material. He was destroyed in Stoke thanks to his CV and who ever wrote it and was not going to recover for this election. We need a radical new leader and not necessarily an MEP to pull the party together. It isn’t helping with blogs from former UKIPPERS like Wolffe and James
Max, Dee
Yes national survival is the aim, but all the evidence shows that people won’t vote for it even when it’s staring them in the face.
If we want to win we have no choice but play it their way – ie on the economy.
Sorry Dee, your view might win a Breitbart vote, but never the important one.