UPDATED WITH INFO BY LUKE NASH-JONES, AS DEMANDED IN COMMENT POSTS
After a couple of months of inertia and public ridicule caused by the Bolton fiasco I was getting confident that a new openness and trust was developing between the organisations and factions within UKIP that would, in time, again make the party a viable choice come election time.
A moderate libertarian-leaning party will always, by dint of the nature of its membership, have a fair number of gadflies and loons and I suspect that eccentricity and the fun it brings makes the otherwise dour nature of political debate more palatable to many of the party faithful.
Without individualism, there can be no original thought. On this site, on Kipper Central and MBGA, protagonists can and do engage in robust debate, but generally, we all have a common core of unwritten values, mores and rules that we stick to.
We don’t use foul language, we don’t engage in ad-hominem attacks and we are tolerant of people’s religions, sexuality and political beliefs, whether we agree with them or not.
As such UKIP has a clause within its rules which proscribes current or past membership of certain political groups that are either blatantly racist, encourage violence or are extremely intolerant.
The demographic profile of UKIP, as evidenced by my MK I eyeballs at the Birmingham EGM, is quite old and quite conservative – with a small ‘c’. The vast majority of the 1500 who turned up did so because they had something to say and had something to do about the Bolton fiasco. They made the effort and spent good money to travel to Birmingham precisely because they felt that the unwritten rules of play were violated by Bolton/Marney and they wanted it sorted out. Old rivals shook hands and slapped backs, faces were put to names, there was a sense of unity and camaraderie which often comes out of near fatal conflict. It was a new beginning.
I would bet, given the demographics I refer to, that most the 1500 remember aspects of the Second World War and its aftermath. Some even lived through it. Some – I spoke to a couple – even were the offspring of refugees who fled from Germany. I would bet that out of that good 1500 only a tiny fraction would ever countenance even flirting with any other person or political group that worships Nazism – because they have experienced the consequences.
Late last year, the YI had to cancel its conference, at short notice, because it feared attacks by ‘Antifa’ due to the fact it had invited a certain Martin Sellner, leader of the “New Right” Identitarian Movement of Austria, as speaker. The leaders of YI protested loudly that their rights of Free Speech were interrupted, they blamed the Police for not protecting them. The usual ‘It’s the MSM trying to shut us down!’ shouts were expressed and repeated by a few commentators on this site trying to justify that meeting. It was a meeting that never should have been organised in the first place.
Since then YI has contributed to the UKIP movement by energetic use of social media and there have been encouraging signs that lessons regarding mass communication techniques can be learned from them. So, imagine my shock when on Thursday night I received a communication telling me that YI were reconvening their meeting, at a place yet to be disclosed, where the key speaker is again Martin Sellner!
Make no bones about it, Sellner is an out and out Nazi, a white supremacist who is well known in Europe and idolised by fools here. I asked Luke Nash-Jones, editor of MBGA, for some intelligence and reproduce his answer verbatim, with his kind permission:
“I turned down Young Independence’s request that I finance this event. There are many good, passionate Britons who challenge political correctness, and would make a fine speaker – so why on earth are YI paying for this Martin Sellner to come to the UK for a jolly?
Investigating newly arising political groups to see which the People’s Charter Foundation should and should not work with, I spoke to Generation Identitaire’s management in Europe, and found that they strongly dislike me for my rejection of their core belief. They promote white supremacist ideals that they hide under a banner of “ethnopluralism”. Basically they support racial apartheid. They are former Nazis who’ve rebranded for good ‘optics’ as the European equivalent to the US white nationalist Richard Spencer.
When I said I’d sooner have a black man like Kurten, who loves our culture, as my neighbour, than a white Marxist like Corbyn, they just kept going on about ethnic purity: they use ethnicity to refer to race.
UKIP is lost post-Brexit, because it was formed by city boys who wanted to leave the EU, to escape the economic protectionism, so they can flood Britain with cheap imports for a quick buck. They played the immigration card, but they don’t really want to close our borders. Meanwhile, others who’ve joined UKIP since, want more, but there is a continual, horrendous failure to find a healthy, sensible populist message. Either UKIP sits around doing nothing, or talks only about Islam. Meanwhile, a lunatic fringe of UKIP’s youth wing have some weird Nazi fetish, running pathetic secret Facebook groups.
UKIP needs a full, proper broad populist message, talking about the need to stop outsourcing jobs (raise import tax), the need to cut migration, the need to reduce house prices, and very crucially, the need to challenge cultural Marxism, the ‘soyboy’ culture.”¹
I have made the point, often, on this site and elsewhere, about the dangers of the fetishism of Fascism. I understand the attraction … As PJ O’Rourke once said:
“No one has ever had a fantasy about being tied to a bed and sexually ravished by someone dressed as a liberal”²
But YI has an unhealthy obsession with the so-called Alt-Right, and I sense it has more to do with fashion and sexual fetishism than it has to do with politics. It’s the school that breeds Jo Marney and all that that brings. It’s the school of leader-worship and political uniforms and it’s a road that leads to political oblivion.
I don’t normally do censorship but I implore the NEC and Gerard Batten, if they can’t dissuade or stop it, to disassociate UKIP from this meeting which is due to take place in just over a week. Failure to do so will bring the press and media down on the party like a ton of bricks and put UKIP in the public eye for all the wrong reasons.
Please…
Don’t Let the Kiddies Play with Matches.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1) Luke Nash-Jones to Kevin Baverstock and Viv Evans, private correspondence.
2) Attributed to PJ O’Rourke
Ed: While UKIP has always stood for Free Speech and abhors the Left’s “No Platforming”, this invitation is bound to deliver ammunition to the MSM and the Left Groups who delight in smearing UKIP as akin to the proscribed BNP. The points raised by Mr Bav and Luke Nash-Jones in the article above need urgent, further debate.
I’m closing the comments because they have sunk to ad-hominem attacks and threats – and nothing new or pertinent has been posted for some time.
There will be an article by myself tomorrow dealing with this.
I resigned from UKIP as result of the sulpherous and unpleasant leadership campaign. I detected a strain of opinion that was quite happy to use the language and tactics of our enemies against kippers they disagreed with. This thread suggests it is still present. Mr. Bav and LNJ may be correct in what they say, but I cannnot be convinced by what I have read here. Torquil rightly reminds us that freedom and free speech are not absolutes in all circumstances. LNJ says this a private YI meeting in a privte venue. So if they want to hear what Sellner has to say, why not? Nothing here convinces me YI should not keep an open but sceptical mind. There is too much branding of any voice different from the virtue signalling, cultural Marxist globalists. Unless we conservatives are prepared to confront these people and support those like Trump who are fighting against their virulent ideology, we might as well just pull the blanket over our heads.
Britain desperately needs a party to take on the establishment. Not yet convinced there is one to rally behind. When Bolton OBE was elected, a Dorset member said to me, ” Well, we can live with that”. Silently, I said to myself z- Or we could die with that. It didn’t take long to find out, did it?
Over a day now since I challenged Mr. Bav and Luke Nash-Jones to produce evidence for the bold claim that Martin Sellner is “an out and out Nazi”.
Two dated, unsourced photographs is the sum of their response. Plus Luke Nash-Jones sneering at me and Hugo, using foul language and saying Martin Sellner is Hugo’s ‘hero’, when Hugo had never heard of the man before reading this article. Mr. Bav has repeated his apparently libellous claim in the comments. Neither has provided a shred of evidence from Martin Sellner’s recent speeches or writings that he is now a Nazi.
Those tactics should be familiar to everyone: left wingers have been calling UKIP members Nazis for years. Henry Bolton called Anne Marie Waters and her supporters Nazis which led to their leaving the party en masse. Exactly the same bullying, sneering and foul language that left wingers and Henry Bolton use is used in the comments here to avoid coming up with actual evidence to support the ‘Nazi’ claim.
UKIP Daily and the author seem blissfully carefree of the possibility that Martin Sellner will sue them for libel. Given UKIP’s recent sorry history of calling people ‘Nazis’ when they’re not, I would have thought lessons had been learned. But apparently not.
Keith,
Personally, I would have admired AMW’s to have remained in the party with her supporters and fight back to prove them wrong, but she did not, she did a ‘runner’ as did JRE’s, not an admirable facet to have I would say. Now their movements are struggling to get recognised and AMW’s cannot even hold public meetings, she should have stayed in UKIP to clear her name and those of her supporters that followed her, I think they could have achieved much more IMO.
DD
we are where we are, unfortunately. I don’t blame AMW for leaving.
Given where we are now, it is important that we work together to tackle the threats that we face from Islam in particular, but also Cultural Marxism, censorship etc. Oh, and Brexit of course!
During the referendum campaign there were numerous organisations campaigning to exit the EU. At the grassroots level it really did not matter. In fact I think it was beneficial. We were delivering leaflets appropriate to the area, and I think that was more effective than if there had just been one organisation. I delivered 700 Labour Leave booklets on the day before the referendum. They were actually very good.
DD – it is easy to be wise after the event. However, Anne Marie couldn’t know that Henry Bolton wouldn’t be leader for several years, with a supportive side-kick in the form of Nigel Farage. Under those circumstances it would have been impossible for Anne Marie, or myself as one who left, to continue in UKIP.
I do believe that if Gerard had offered Anne Marie an olive branch she might have considered it. That he hasn’t, presumably because he knows he wouldn’t have the support of many UKIP members is a great shame. He offered an olive branch to members who left, but not to Anne Marie. How do you think that looks to those of us who believe that Anne Marie has a vital part to play in Britain’s future, one way or another. Gerard should seek to merge For Britain movement with UKIP, imo (howls of protest!)
Tommy Robinson made the point at Anne Marie’s launch that many people like himself had previously had no political home and didn’t vote at all. Why would they vote UKIP when it sees them as something to be scraped off their shoes?
This is the dreadful shame, and the bind that we are in. To my way of thinking, and I know some of you will disagree, UKIP is at fault here for refusing to look at circumstances of ex-EDL BNP etc individuals who should be able to put forward a defense. Alieniating people who have the same aims is not going to achieve the outcome we want, and Tommy has thousands of like minded supporters – he is a brave and principled man. (More howls of protest?!)
I long for the day when all our disparate movements bury the hatchet and come together – then we really might achieve something. But I’m not holding my breath. And in the meantime, the outlook gets worse almost by the day. Fiddle away. while the UK burns!
Dee, well said.
We cannot afford to be divided.
All this finger pointing, and the unfounded accusations are really unhelpful.
We may have as little as 12 years remaining, before the point of no return. Beyond that, it will be impossible to reverse the Islamisation of the UK.
No two people or organisations will be in 100% agreement on every minute detail of policy. However if we can be broadly in agreement on the most significant aspects then that will have to do.
Dee,
I am not sure that should Gerard offer a post to Anne Marie she would accept it now, the only way to find out is to do it, as you say he was willing to accept her supporters back which seems a bit strange, either you agree with her or not. Personally, I think if it was me I would give it a go but I don’t know what pressure he is under by donors etc, so it is easy for me to sit here and say these things, as it is for anyone else.
Do you think you may be jumping the gun. He’s not daft. She can on some subjects be brilliant. He has been cagey and only released a few details yet. He also has his Primary duties in Brussels to attend to. Just releasing a raft of names, like Bolton did, is not very helpful. Particularly as this is what the hand-shakers and backstabbers will want. Wait, It’s only 2 weeks. I gave Bolton full time 3 months before giving up hope. Although the signs were there beforehand,. But one is ever an optimist. Foolishly as it turned out.
I feel a lot of concern about the judgement of the more staid ( conservative [small c ], cautious, political ) members of ukip who do not seem to understand that part of its character as a protest group. They seem maddened by the golden prospect of being an MP or councillor, and horrified and terrifyed by the consequences of not being politically invisibly sterile.
Dee,
I hate to say this but I was wise before the event, no one could have disliked Henry Bolton more than me, unfortunately AMW’s rose to the bait and walked taking our supporters with her, therefore, making our party weaker. I ask you who put their country first those that remained or those that followed her, it is obvious that she will not be granted political status by the electoral commission therefore, she and her followers are virtually muted.
This was not a valiant step in my opinion but a vain one because by taking some of our supporters she took away some of our finance, I am always wary of people who join a party then try to become leader when they have been there for a short time regardless of how earnest they may be. But not just that, leadership qualities are of absolute necessity, you and obviously others see them in AMW’s, unfortunately, I do not, this does not mean I disagree with what she says, I do not, I guess it is the way in which it is delivered, it could be a bit of a turn off to the public, that is the way I see it, sorry.
Dee,
When you say that, if Gerard had offered Anne Marie an olive branch she might have considered it, are you suggesting she would then have either wound up For Britain or agreed to merge it with UKIP?
I’m not sure that would have gone down too well with For Britain members, particularly as Gerard might only be leader for a few months and who knows who could succeed him? Suzanne Evans possibly(!), or somebody else anti-Anne Marie? Anyway, it’s not going to happen in the foreseeable future.
Congratulations, by the way, on your Twitter page. A very impressive number of followers now.
AMW was caught on camera by ITV only last September ( but broadcast on Nov 4)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IM4wtEr4No
Also see this
http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/2017/10/22/waters-sellner-speak-traditional-britain-group-conference/
Mark Collett is ex BNP/ ) and Jack Buckley is ex BNP and was AMW’s campaign manager during her leadership bid. The picture attached is Mr Collett , AMW’s mate, with his one-time girlfriend who calls herself ‘Eva Van Housen’ (real name Jenna Smith, but thats not so…..Aryan….? )
http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/05/neo-nazis-and-far-right-extremists-are-hijacking-vote-leave-5924885/
Now you tell me if you really think AMW didn’t notice that subtle tattoo?
Thanks for those links, Mr. Bav. A highly trained operative secretly filming Anne Marie for nine months, then an immediate hour-long special on ITV hosted by Nick Lowles, was a great boost to For Britain. It showed how scared the Establishment are of AMW, and it showed that she says in private exactly what she says in public.
Yes, the speech Anne Marie gave at the Traditional Britain group was quite outstanding. I give this link to anyone who tells me they are interested in her message:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zIlj-oE1X4
I didn’t know Martin Sellner spoke there too. Are you trying to imply that AMW is responsible for anything any speaker at the event said?
AMW is a Nazi because the girlfriend of someone she once associated with has a swastika tattoo? Are you serious?
Funny how you can come up with these links, but can’t provide any links to where Martin Sellner has said or written anything showing he is “an out and out Nazi” as you claimed.
Keith, I think they have lost the plot.
Hopefully they will see the need to provide solid evidence, or else withdraw their allegations.
The less blurred photo – the two men at the back are wearing hats which are of a type worn by hotel porters. Those in the foreground have glum expressions and are dressed in dark clothes. If anybody asked me what this photo is showing I would suggest it was the funeral of a hotel porter.
The other photo – I would have guessed it was a pro-Palestine protest, with an ISIS flag in the background.
In other words the two photos are pretty meaningless without any context or additional evidence.
Keith.
I fail to understand your motives in backing Sellner over UKIP..
Martin Sellner is NOT a member of UKIP as far as I know. He is the leader of an Austrian group called GI that only recruits ‘white Aryans’ into its organisation. Sellner has been filmed, by ITV, referring to Pakistanis as ‘Pakis’, refering to the Jews in the 20’s and ’30’s as ‘the problem’ and identifying Muslims ( as a whole ) as ‘the new problem’. He has been filmed with -now jailed- Austrian Nazis and Holocaust deniers (illegal in Austria and Germany).
GI wear a political uniform ( which would be illegal here) of blue shirts with a Circle and Lamda logo, quite similar to the B.U.F.’s black shirts and Circle and Flash logo.
They refer to ‘degeneracy’ with regard to art and culture. As did NSDAP. They only recruit under the age of 40 and have para-military style training camps in Europe. They are immensely secretive .
Let’s say YI DO have their meeting with GI ( the theme is ‘The Great Replacement’- you look it up). Let me tell you what will happen. Already HnH are watching YI (look it up) . They are watching individuals by name. Antifa thugs are already watching out for this meeting too (I am not suggesting HnH is anything to do with Antifa by the way).
The -very young – YI members could well end up getting badly beaten up, or worse, for the indulgence of flirting with GI. Don’t expect police protection at the taxpayers expense, it will not happen. If YI want to leave UKIP and join GI ( a few probably have dual party allegiance already ) , then that’s their business. But it should NOT be as if its sanctioned by UKIP.
The message I have tried to put across – as has Luke, is that YI are having this meeting knowing exactly what Sellner is about. Luke’s already warned them. GI is sophisticated and to some, very sexy. However Sellner does not represent the moderate views of UKIP. He is not banned from Britain- yet- so he can speak, but there will be trouble.
Why are YI looking for trouble?
Yes, Keith, the pair of them are quite incredible making out it is so easy to prove Sellner is an ‘out and out Nazi’ and a racist and yet when asked to provide that proof either go to ground or make breakfast and read the papers.
Luke Nash-Jones apparently thinks he has provided the proof with a couple of photos showing Sellner walking down the street with a few other people and says more information is at everyone’s fingertips but can’t use his own fingertips to back up his claim.
As for Mr Bav, clearly he thinks it is unnecessary for him to have to post any sort of link to Sellner which might support what he has said in the article and, judging by his comments to Hugo, it looks like it’s all now become a bit of a joke to him.
Well, when this article is drawn to Mr Sellners’ attention, as I am sure it will be by someone from YI, they may wish they had not been so slipshod with their accusations.
John As someone who was a member and activist of James Goldsmiths Referendum Party back in the early 90s I can fully understand your frustration. We focussed our campaign on this very issue and distributed much information but generally speaking much of the public found the complexity of the legalese lexicon too much for them never mind the activists themselves – its a difficult sell. The Maastricht Treaty was still signed despite our best efforts.
I was rather disappointed that there was not more discussion about sovereignty in the referendum debates but on reflection it may be that the Leave campaign after much thought decided that the slogan ‘Take Back Control’ of laws, borders and money was better understood by the public than getting bogged down in constitutional arguments that people could not relate to. It was a simple, powerful slogan that won the EU referendum.
The views expressed above in no way diminish the importance of the constitutional illegalities of our membership of the EU and I remain disgusted at the treason of the establishment perpetrated against the British people.
Well.
I’ve been out all day.
I’m glad that this article has stimulated some debate.
All very healthy.
Luckily we are not under the Nazi yoke otherwise nobody could say anything..
Keep Buggering On !
Night all !
Mr Bav
“he was accused (it seems that he did) of running one of the main German-language actual Nazi websites (to those in comments below, Google is at your fingertips!)”
Bav, your article is making some bold claims. The onus is upon you to provide the evidence to back up your claims or else withdraw them. The cost of losing a libel case is enormous, as Jane Collins discovered.
OK I have done a Google search for “Martin Sellner”. Google gives me 102,000 results. It would take me months to read through them all.
You must provide us with a link from a reliable source (NOT from an equivalent to a Guardian so-called “journalist”) to back up your claims. I do not have the time or energy to trawl through the thousands of items which Google finds. The onus is NOT upon me to do so anyway. The onus is upon you to do so.
And please tell your co-author to withdraw the libel against me also. Martin Sellner is not my hero. I never heard of Martin Sellner before I read this article,
There’s a lot of things I must do Hugo.
I must make myself a large cup of coffee.
I must go out for my 5 mile Sunday walk and get some healthy fresh air after being snow bound.
And then I must make breakfast, read the papers, do my chores and then, perhaps start writing my next paper, called “Queer as Volk” which seeks to examine the strange fetishist links between repressed homosexuality, hyper-masculine posturing, fashion, racism, anti-semitism, postmodern far-right ‘identitarian’ youth organisations, and the Nazis.
Like Sellner.
Luke, you wrote:
“Hugo, what a weak excuse to try to silence free speech – this article revealed your hero for what he is, so you want it censored.”
This is libelous against me.
This is an interesting read:
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/dateline/article/2017/04/25/encounter-europes-new-right-wing-activists
Partucularly: “Shortly after we meet Martin points out the Identitarians have sued an Austrian TV channel for calling his group Nazi, a warning that we should be careful with our language.”
A very interesting article, Rob, but see also the follow-on article https://www.sbs.com.au/news/dateline/story/dateline-europe-special-young-hip-and-far-right
from which I quote:
“Andreas [Peham] believes Martin and others in the Identitarian movement had their core political values shaped by those in neo-Nazi groups. He refers to photos and other documentary evidence, including a photograph from 2008 where Martin is pictured with a prominent face of the far right, Gottfried Küssel, who is currently imprisoned on charges of Nazi revivalism. In Austria, Nazism is illegal under constitutional changes made after the Second World War – which were enacted to begin the process of de-Nazification.”
Read that, too, Viv, but 2008 was 10 years ago… I wonder if he won his case?
Actually what that article reminds us of is that the Nazis believed that they were members of an innately superior Aryan race or put another way: if you are not a racial supremacist like certain Asiatics I can mention who believe they are entitled to control our public discourse, then you are not by definition a Nazi so stop bandying this term around, please against those who simply believe that we are entitled to our own living space without which we will simply cease to exist.
Lebensraum
Thanks for this link Rob it gives us a much clearer picture of the nature of the Identitarians.
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable Sun Tzu
Rob, thankyou for the link.
The sentence following the one you quote would appear to be key to our discussions:
“He adamantly insists they are not, and that they don’t agree with the National Socialist idea of Aryan racial superiority – or any racial superiority for that matter.”
The belief in racial superiority was a key aspect of Nazi doctrine. Since he is explicitly rejecting this doctrine, then can anybody realistically prove, in a court of law if necessary that “Make no bones about it, Sellner is an out and out Nazi, a white supremacist”.
On the evidence of the article linked to by Rob, this assertion would appear to be exceedingly weak.
Luke, Bav, Viv, I am seriously concerned that this article is making you vulnerable to legal action for libel.
I have had, in the distant past, NEC members have Messrs. Olswang discuss libel with me, so know a little about it and share your concerns…
Rob: And they are gratuitously unpleasant and sarcastic to me too, when my initial request was simply to be provided with links to references supporting their assertions. Big claims demand solid evidence.
I became accustomed to being called a Nazi by ignorant lefties while handing out UKIP leaflets on the high street. I was not expecting that Anne Marie Waters and by association those who share her concerns would be so tarred too, by seniour UKIP members.
Now I see that the rot has set in here too.
If we are to tackle the serious matters that threaten the future of our country, then we have to be absolutely accurate with our facts. This article, and the behaviour of the authors leaves me dispirited this morning.
Thanks for the update and the photos, Luke.
Welcome. So much information at everyone’s fingertips on Google. Please look guys, then this kind of needless embarrassment can be avoided!
“So much information at everyone’s fingertips..”, yet you seem unable to provide a link to back up your assertions.
When someone wants to restrict what somebody else can say in public, I always think “Who made YOU God?”
It is a short step from the censorship of free speech to the closing down of debate in universities and to the Pope burning scientists for having the nerve to opine that the world is not flat and was not created in 7 days.
IMO free speech must always be permitted. If it isnt a basic human right to express your own opinion, even if it does upset some of the audience and even if the whole world is telling you that you are wrong, then I dont know what is.
Anyone who doesn’t like the message does not have to listen to it. They can walk away.
Logically, that argument has to be extended to allowing people the freedom to express truly horrendous views (eg that it is a good thing to torture animals in abbatoirs or that children are asking to be raped). That’s when the rest of us have to put the opposing argument and when our Government has to ensure that there are sanctions in place to ensure that the horrendous opinions in question are never actually put into practice, because undoubtedly society needs protection from the behaviour of worst specimens of humankind.
But we dont need protection from free speech. That’s what humour is for. We couldnt (and shouldn’t) stop Lord Haw Haw from expressing his opinions, but we can the radio off and do something more positive with our time, or we could employ our famous British sense of humour and laugh at him.
What are you on about? This isn’t a question of what someone can say in public – it’s a private event at a private venue, and the choice of respect reflects the organisation.
Indeed. “Supporting the right of free speech” simply means to be against LAWS that CRIMINALISE certain forms of expression. It does not mean that one has to listen to, patronise, publicise, or in any way welcome, let alone give material support (e.g. funds, or organisational support) to, expressions with which one does not agree. Freedom works both ways.
Perhaps I should qualify the word “one” above, by replacing it with “a private individual or body”. We hear of “no-platforming” imposed by University authorities – public bodies – against meetings critical of Islam while allowing meetings that preach radical Islam. This is reprehensible.
Apart from the links to Kipper Central and MBGA I cannot see any links to referenced material in the updated article.
It is helpful for the reader to be provided with links to the relevant source material. See this example:
https://independencedaily.co.uk/human-rights-v-islam/
Yes, after six hours I’m still waiting for any evidence from Mr. Bav or Luke Nash-Jones that Martin Sellner has said anything as the leader of the Identitarian Movement that would lead any reasonable person to conclude he is “an out and out Nazi”, as Mr. Bav claims.
Unless/until such evidence is shown to exist, I think the Editors should amend or take down this article. If there is no such evidence, “Sellner is an out and out Nazi” is libellous.
The article has two photos. What’s wrong with you? How can you think it is ok for people to run actual Nazi websites? Are you mad? We do not use the word lightly – we objected when Farage called AMW a racist, while most of UKIP was still licking his backside! Don’t you dare suggest we randomly use this word! Sellner is a white nationalist who wants non-whites deported – this is VERY well-known. You need to do proper research on these matters you reckon you are the expert on. Goodness sake!
I’m challenging you or Mr. Bav to produce evidence, IN MARTIN SELLNER’S RECENT SPEECHES OR WRITINGS, that he is “an out and out Nazi” as the article claims. On the present showing, it appears you can’t, in which case this article is libellous.
Luke, the two photos do not match what you are telling us. I cannot see any swastikas. I cannot see any Nazi salutes. I cannot see any uniforms with jackboots.
If something is very well known you should be able to provide us with hyperlinks to the relevant articles/videos/photos/interviews.
You are the one who is making these accusations, and so the onus is upon you to provide the solid evidence. Yes I can use Google, but that is beside the point.
Mr Bav makes the point that many of those present at the EGM will remember the war or its immediate aftermath. I remember that mono-cultural England as well. What is certain is that most of those present will not be around in 50 years time to see the further consequences of our allowing our mono-culture to be replaced with a multi-culture and and to accept the removal of our freedom of speech. It is up to YI who will be around in 50 years time to gather evidence to decide how to be successful where we have so disastrously failed.
The adult section of the party should indeed counsel YI about the potentially counter-productive effect of their choice of speaker. If they will not reconsider then the party should issue a brief statement dissociating itself from YI’s choice of speaker. That much I can agree on.
But, the issue merited no more than a letter, not a full blown article, and possibly to the leader and NEC only. Ever since Etheridge, Farage, Hookem, Bolton et al, decided to use the language of our opponents (ALWAYS a mistake) and refer to an unspecified number of members as `neo-nazis’ or the party as at risk of becoming a Nazi party, it is now UKIP itself that bandies about the term Nazi. As a label for some members in our party it has been legitimated. They are such themselves, allegedly, or at least flirt with Nazis by way of speaking invitations.
Génération Identitaire, of which Sellner is co-leader in Austria, are concerned at the threat to European culture of mass immigration and Islam in particular. They are not wrong to be concerned as anyone who has read Douglas Murray’s “The Strange Death of Europe” knows. Sellner was also involved in Defend Europe which hired a boat to challenge NGO complicity with people smugglers operating along the North African coast.
The Home Office bans people entering the UK whose presence is not conducive to the public good and did so in the cases of, for example, Geert Wilders and Pamela Geller (neither of whom merited such a ban in my view). An “out and out” Nazi would surely be banned so perhaps the letter should also go to the Home Office. If the Home Office permit him entry then we can conclude that the description “Nazi” is not warranted.
Having Sellner as speaker achieves nothing. In these days of the internet one does not really need to invite anyone as a speaker. Their views will be readily available. YI’s purpose is probably motivated by adolescent defiance. While we can see the tension between free speech and not needlessly providing `antifa’ with ammunition, and exercise a choice (reluctanly perhaps) young people are not constrained by nuance. As with the Anne-Marie Waters débacle, the issue should not be made bigger than it is. It was a calamatous political misjudgement by Nigel and others to make a martyr out of Waters and the party should avoid the same mistake over Sellner. Waters was not a Nazi, just someone with a Joan of Arc complex who been getting little traction until Nigel et al decided to engage in their own version of virtue signalling. It will be sufficient for the party to leave a brief statement on its website and move on. The last brouha made little impact with the general public and so it will be this time round if we ordinary kippers can stop using terms like “Nazi”.
Nash-Jones says he would rather have a black guy as neighbour than a white marxist. Unwittingly, he uses racist language. Of the two evils, white marxist is even worse than a black guy as a neighbour? I agree about marxists (of any colour) but they are not to be contrasted with black or brown people. They exist as an undesirable category in their own right. There is no hierarchy that starts with (white) marxists at the bottom and works its way up through other levels of people via black guys sharing our culture to the pinnacle of Nash-Jones.
Excellently summed up, Stout ( although I disagree about the Joan of Arc complex!)
I agree with Dee good comment.
Stout,
I agree with everything you say, Luke-Jones himself has unwittingly said something that could be viewed as racist, and there lies the problem, sometimes it is how the other person interprets what you say and in what context. I think we should never use the word ‘nazi’ unless we are actually talking about the nazi’s and by that I mean the German soldiers who carried out some of the worst atrocities carried out in the 20th century, and who originated in what was supposed to be a civilised society. I am sick to death of this word being banded about so liberally actually diluting what it actually refers to, that is why I have I hope never likened the EU to them.
I also agree that AMW’s does have a slightly ‘Joan of Arc allure as in fact some of her supporters allude to her having just that, it is not a good comparison if you wish to attract more supporters IMO. Some people compare Nigel Farage to Enoch Powell in so much as he should have become Prime Minister, who knows whether Enoch would have become a good prime minister, was he a team player? I do not know. He certainly gave some good speeches and one very outspoken one for which the country at the time did not seem ready to act upon, and that became his undoing.
Nigel Farage was in a very different position because he headed a small party that helped achieve a massive decision by the British people, he could have stayed as leader and continued the fight which was obvious was going to ensue, anyway, that is all history now. Which is just my point, history of course, has it’s place in politics but the future is more alluring. I don’t know that much about Martin Sellner’s politics but it sounds like an awful lot of trouble, not sure how he compares to Keert Wilders either, but I personally would not invite trouble unnecessarily if it can be avoided, however, it would depend on what this guy is going to say, but his reputation seems to preempt him.
Finally, why on earth is that photo displayed above this article because even if they are not the Hitler youth they certainly look like them, that could be used against us for a start before you even read the article because that photo sticks in your mind as you are reading it, we must be very careful how we use images and words IMO. Thank you for reading.
Sound words DD.
I’m with Viv. Politics is a grubby business and we don’t need unwanted accusations of consorting with ANYONE we’re not sure about or who, for whatever reason, have had mud thrown at them that sticks. And here are two examples some of you might not like but from a PR angle, something UKIP has spectacularly failed to ever understand, are bad ideas: 1) Shoving pictures of Enoch Powell on UKIP material. YES, I know and you know he was a great man, much maligned and much misunderstood etc etc BUT he was successfully labelled as extreme and became the poster boy for the moronic anti-racist shouting classes…he was also condemned (shamefully) by his own party. Trying to turn back that piece of history is pointless, huge sections of the populace just won’t listen. And it’s bad for UKIP. 2) Trying to defend Donald Trump. It’s hopeless, 75% of Britain has been brainwashed to hate him, it’s wrong but defending Trump isn’t our cause, our cause is showing people what a pile of merde the EU is – we must stay focused on the things that matter…like this, unarguable evidence of giveaway EU passports >>> http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Acquisition_of_citizenship_statistics
With reference to Jack T on tolerance and Islam, it may be worth recalling what philosopher Karl Popper had to say in 1945: ” The paradox of tolerance says that unlimited tolerance will lead to the death of tolerance – Defending tolerance includes being intolerant of intolerance”.
Islam’s assertion that it is the ONLY religion and the whole world must be subject to it by force, if necessary and its insistence on death for apostasy, surely puts it squarely in the box of “intolerance” against which tolerance should be defended.
Allow me to step into this debate. Demanding ‘proof of speech’ that Mr Sellner is or isn’t a Nazi is missing the point. We’re not in a court of Law, nor is this a scientific paper needing to ‘show the works’. It’s about facing the ‘Court of Public Opinion’, and as all Kippers know, there’s shrugging off smears – and there’s providing the mud-slingers with mud ourselves.
The point is that inviting him, after last year’s fiasco, gives the Left further ammunition. Just check out the HnH page (I shall not link to that here on UKIP Daily – google it yourselves).
Do we need this in the run-up to the Local Elections?
Does YI and by extension UKIP need to be connected with an at least very questionable group and leader, at this particular point?
Viv, if an accusation is made against an individual then there has to be solid evidence to back up such a claim. Otherwise someone may get sued for libel. It does happen!
We have to avoid pandering to the lefties who seem to accuse anyone with views they disagree with as being Nazis. This is a general point. I have not searched in detail regarding Martin Sellner and so cannot comment on him specifically.
Anne Marie Waters was accused of being a Nazi, and by implication those UKIP members who voted for her were tainted with the same brush. Of course she is not a Nazi, it was a ridiculous accusation. My question is whether the accusation in this article – is it also ridiculous? There were no obvious evidence given.
Should the article be withdrawn, until such time as the author can provide hard evidence of his assertions?
Replying to Luke below.
I had not heard of Martin Sellner before reading this article, and so he can hardly be my hero.
All I am asking from you is properly linked to articles etc to back up your claims. Is that not unreasonable?
Once I have seen the evidence on which you are basing your claims, then I will be able to form a view either way.
Viv, I absolutely see your point – but it is a dreadful state of affairs when Antifa and HnH are allowed to foster a climate that seems to mean – ‘even if we haven’t actual proof (though there may be some) we had better not invite someone speak, so that we can decide for ourselves – because we shall be accused of being something we aren’t’.
One might ask, and I freely admit I don’t know, has the same happened to Mr. Sellner?
The thing is, Dee, that it’s not about ‘allowing HnH to dictate what we say’, it’s that we’re prone to think the best of people and don’t do our own research while brushing criticism coming from e.g. HnH aside as biased – but they sue the same stuff published on the internet which we can and should use. The Bolton debacle surely should have bought us to be a bit more diligent?
Please do check out the updates from LNJ in the article!
Btw – and slightly OT – if you hover your pointer over the elegant little icons for Facebook, twitter etc at the bottom of an article, they’ll light up, you can click and can tweet the article in question … (yes, I didn’t know either and needed to be told by IT-Chas …)
Hi Viv from a slightly warmer than yesterday bit of Wales, I absolutely see your point – I have listened to a few Selner interviews, found nothing to disagree with – but there may be something undiscovered by me somewhere, so will do.
Thanks for how to Tweet advice, although I can’t ‘hover’ on an iPad I don’t think – but if anyone can’t hover either, it’s fairly simple to email the article to oneself then copy to Tweet.
Hugo, what a weak excuse to try to silence free speech – this article revealed your hero for what he is, so you want it censored. You are reading this online blog, so you have access to Google, where there is lots of info on Sellner’s Nazi activities, and the blog articles references some.
Googling HnH brings up “high and horny”, “HNH Corporate Finance”, “Herne Hill Railway Station”, “HNH Cosmetics”, port of “Huanghua”, and so on. Which of these is it?
Good grief – have you never heard of ‘Hope not Hate’, abbreviated to HnH? Really?
Viv
I thought that HNH stood for ‘How now Henry’!!!
I agree with George ‘s comment. Take PC for example, politically correct, personal computer, proper Charlie, police constable. Another one I like is PTB, passenger transport board; add an N and you get Nottingham PTB, or Newcastle PTB (which Newcastle?) or even Newtown PTB.
In a letter to a local paper I used ISO to which BS is related sole because I have been used to using ISO documents, as well as BS documents, ANSI documents, DIN documents. I looked up ISO members and the EU was not mentioned .
Back to ISO. By using ISO I failed to appreciate that many people do not know what ISO is and it was arrogant of me to assume that the readers would know what ISO stands for.
ISO standards are the result of combining, with agreement, world wide national consumer, food and manufacturing standards etc. to enable goods made in one country to be exported, under the International Standards Organisation agreed standard, to other countries
D.Turgoose
🤣😂 (merited, methinks!)
Ooooo I’ve just twigged — its the first one, isn’t it? Shows how innocent I am. I just don’t know about some of these things.
part two of comment
“Ed: While UKIP has always stood for Free Speech and abhors the Left’s “No Platforming”, (Viv )
UKIP does not stand for free speech, currently it stands for free speech with in the law.
This is a long way off free speech.
I believe in free speech, more so than current UKIP policy.
I believe in free speech more along the US first amendment lines.
This is something UKIP needs to look at down the line, my opinion.
However, liking free speech does not mean that UKIP at this point in time needs
the media attention which the YI talk might bring with this talk.
That is a separate consideration.
UKIP tactics, UKIP strategy to achieve primary goal (Brexit) vs support free speech at any cost.
I suspect this will be a deal breaker for some in the YI who already feel betrayed by the
lack of UKIP support on their last attempt.
I am yet to be persuaded fully in not supporting this meeting.
However I suspect that Mr Bav is correct and it will gain UKIP negative media attention.
However most media attention to UKIP is negative, so probably UKIP
could shoulder it, along the lines, we support free speech but not necessarily the content.
The YI have the right to hear and listen to whoever they want to invite.
I don’t know.
One thing is correct and that is what the ed says
“The points raised by Mr Bav and Luke Nash-Jones in the article above need urgent, further debate.”
I would add to that the views of the YI need hearing as well.
Chris
A really interesting point, one I’d never even thought of, butcorrect.
Fully agree with Mr Bav
MSM will have a field day in smearing the Party.
YI must be smarter than this.
The biggest mistake is that YI is pretty much independent to UKIP, and is generally allowed to whatever it wants. It keeps making embarrassing mistake after mistake, and even has a very active vile neo-Nazi faction called YI Gulag that calls for Jews to be gassed. All YI do is have a civil war between these factions; little serious political activism happens. UKIP has lost control, and frankly, doesn’t really care much about youth votes. The NEC doesn’t understand anyone under age 50; even the young voting member is naive on youth politics and supports very, very militant feminism. A member of the NEC in their thirties or older (yes, not the young militant feminist who has made some awkward comments that caused a media shitstorm) needs to be assigned to work with YI, checking their plans and drawing up a strategy with them. There also needs to be a UKIP Young Leaders programme to give some training that will stop a lot of this incredible incompetence.
Luke Nash-Jones,
This is helpful information and put the YI dilemma article by Mr Bav into deeper perspective.
Good points.
Rob McWhirter,
If the content of LN-J’s statement is correct then a whole section of YI should be investigated and potentially expelled from the party.
Will this comment be acted upon by UKIP leaders Rob ?
It sounds as/ more serious than the issue the article was on about.
Rob McWhirter.
Is this claim by Luke Nash-Jones about YI being investigated by UKIP leaders.
Surely any members engaging in such dialogue should be expelled if this is found to be the case.
Mr Bav, could you please provide links to any speeches or writings by Martin Sellner which demonstrate your claim? The onus is upon you to do so, not upon others to go hunting around to try to prove a negative.
On a number of occasions when handing out UKIP leaflets I was accused of being a Nazi. My response was that my father served in the RAF during the war against the real Nazis. My accusers never had any real response to that.
There is clear photographic evidence in the article, and if that isn’t enough, Google has plenty.
Mr Bav your article is good and it raises many interesting questions, particularly for UKIP.
On a minor note on the Soy Boy campaign
Last evening I went on the MBGA site to see what recent output Luke Nash-Jones (LNJ) had participated in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zX54fZT9WQQ
“UKIP needs to challenge SoyBoy Culture” Trident Radio interview with LNJ.
Frankly this broadcast annoyed me and I ended up fast forwarding to the end.
So I have not listened to it.
Why ? I cant get past the daft label.
I don’t like the expression libtard, but I find Soy Boy worse.
What are its optics, vegans bad ? vegetarians bad ? Japanese bad ? Chinese bad ?
meat eaters good ? working class good ? (If I do not run past the 400 word limit I will come back to that one).
Japan is full of Soy Boys but they defend their culture, resist immigration and along with China, defend their values and put their countries first.
Yes I get it, lets group all the younger environmentalist, green, lefty people into one label and blame them for populating anti-fa and resisting Brexit, the death penalty and all the other good things that the decent ordinary people,
(aka the working class) want.
By now if you have bothered to read this far, you will get my sentiment.
I do not like the soy boy campaign whatsoever. I will leave it there for word count reasons.
I do like a lot of LNJ’s output and have said as much before.
I suggested UKIP put LNJ in charge of communications.
I still hold that view.
I don’t like the frog thing either (keke ?) it does nothing for me.
Recently I watched the recording of the meeting between Gerard Batten and VAT-FLA.
I totally support Gerard Batten and want him to remain as leader.
However the one thing that jarred with me of that discussion
was the Gerard Batten is good because he is solid working class.
Utter rubbish, he is good because he has stuck to his guns and has many great qualities.
Don’t get me wrong, I very much welcome the VAT-FLA UKIP wedding.
I just do not buy into the working class good message.
However that is for UKIP to decide.
http://ukipnorthernireland.uk/?p=674Gerard
Should free speech be limited. What is UKIP’s view on free speech ?
Is Generation Identaire Nazi ? I am sure that LNJ has better knowledge than myself on it.
Should Luke Nash-Jones anti-68 er stance be adopted by UKIP ? ( I believe not.)
424
( I am totally against the death penalty )
The state has no right to take a life so informed opinion holds.
90% of the political establishment are against the death penalty yet curiously they didn’t mind sending troops to Iraq knowing full well this would end in tens of thousands of civilian deaths. The Arab Spring fully supported by the moralising liberal capital punishment hating West also resulted in tens of thousands of civilian deaths (maybe more in Syria).
The state moralises on the taking of a single life but not tens of thousands.
Jake Bennett – I agree with your view about the deaths at the hand of the Labour Government involvement in Iraq.
Mr Bav in the comments on his article “dead in a day” proposes a different foreign policy which I agree with.
https://independencedaily.co.uk/dead-in-a-day/
“doctrine of strong self -defence and a strict non-aggression policy. That policy, for example, would mean that we would most definitely not be involved with middle eastern conflicts except in the case if it affected British security directly. No ventures or policing in Africa either.”
MBGA, VAT, FLA, LNJ, SoyBoy, that frog thing? Pardon?
What exactly was your response all about?
I have spent much of my life reading poorly written technical programmes. Education, education, and so on.
It does not have to be perfect grammar, but it does have to understandable.
Apologies Biscotte,
MBGA Make Britain Great Again found on You Tube. by typing MBGA
This is where LNJ sometimes records interviews meetings public events.
LNJ ( I gave this definition in the comment LNJ Luke Nash-Jones.
Luke Nash-Jones appears frequently in MBGA you tube videos.
VAT Veterans against terrorism ? A group of ex armed forces who oppose the causes f increased terrorism in the UK.
(that is my guess at their aims)
FLA Football lads association A group of football supporters who share a certain set of political views.
SoyBoy a modern expression to denote a youngish “lefty vegan CND remainer”
Soy Boy will be found in internet dictionaries catering to modern expressions and such like
often referred to as urban something or other.
Keke that frog thing, you know more than me on this one.
I believe it is a symbol, a modern coat of arms, supported by LNJ.
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/pepe-the-frog
Biscotte (plus if you had clicked on the (two hyperlinks I provided in the comment, it would have taken you to the MBGA
video in question. Similarly, I provided further down a hyperlink to the meeting between Gerard Batten and the VAT-FLA
in a pub where they both enjoyed drinking a pint of what looked like lager.)
Biscotte,
MBGA was referred to in Mr Bav’s sensible main article with a link each time in paras 2 & 10
In paragraph 10 he explains Luke Nash-Jones is the Editor for MBGA.
I agree with Mr Bav’s final statement that if against advice the YI organised meeting goes ahead UKIP
should distance (dissasociate) itself in advance of the meeting.
disassociate
not dissasociate
“we are tolerant of people’s religions” Up to a point I am tolerant. I exclude Islam in all its forms so I guess that I might be barred from UKIP if I were to decide to join…
“Make no bones about it, Sellner is an out and out Nazi”. Go on then, Mr. Bav. Please quote what Martin Sellner has said in the last three years that demonstrates he is a Nazi.
I’m not saying he is, I’m not saying he isn’t. I know almost nothing about him. I do know I’ve been lied to many times recently by people calling others Nazis, but when you go and read what the supposed ‘Nazi’ has actually said they turn out to be no such thing. Tommy Robinson and Anne Marie Waters are prime examples.
I ask for direct proof now. Not what other people have said about him, Martin Sellner’s actual words, with a link so we can check the context please. Usually the people calling others Nazis are unable to provide any such evidence.
So you didn’t read the paragraphs in that article from Luke Nash-Jones? Who describes that he’s researched Mr Sellner?
Why don’t you do some research and show us that Mr Sellner is a nice man with no connections to old and Neo-Nazis?
Your’e on the internet – you can do the research and tell us what you find!
Jack Russell, to be fair to “Keith”, he did not make the assertion.
Generally it is better for Mr Bav to provide the evidence rather than
“believe me, Luke Nash-Jones says so”.
Besides we know that Mr Bav is first class at gathering evidence.
In this case, I suspect that LNJ is correct in his opinion.
However it would be helpful if some evidence was provided rather than say
“Keith look it up for yourself”
I did read that paragraph, Jack Russell. Nowhere does it quote Martin Sellner’s exact words. I’ve been lied to often enough recently that I no longer believe accusations of ‘Nazi!’ unless they are backed up by what the supposed ‘Nazi’ has actually said. Usually the person making the accusation is completely unable to back it up with a direct quote.
Mr. Bav made the accusation. It is up to him to provide us with evidence, not up to me to hunt around looking for negative evidence, when it is anyway impossible to prove a negative. Mr. Bav can demonstrate the truth of his assertion very simply, by producing just one sourced direct quote from Martin Sellner.
Keith here, you highlight a problem.
Martin Sellner may never had said something, recorded in public which defines him as a “Nazi”.
People can catch the attention of the public by saying things which appeal and are not too offensive.
As bait. To get the person involved in a cult, movement, more extreme politics.
( Iust had the JW’s on the door).
So what Mr Bav and LNJ are saying is ‘trust us – we know – he associates with known Nazi supporters’.
The reason given by the Hungarian government to recently stop a UK citizen taking up residence in Hungary.
“Mr. Bav can demonstrate the truth of his assertion very simply, by producing just one sourced direct quote from Martin Sellner.”
Its not the quotes that worries Mr Bav its the people Martin Sellner meets up with.
Which still doesn’t prove anything.
The article has two photos. What’s wrong with you? How can you think it is ok for people to run actual Nazi websites? Are you mad? We do not use the word lightly – we objected when Farage called AMW a racist, while most of UKIP was still licking his backside! Don’t you dare suggest we randomly use this word! Sellner is a white nationalist who wants non-whites deported – this is VERY well-known. You need to do proper research on these matters you reckon you are the expert on. Goodness sake!
Luke Nash-Jones,
If your comment was meant for my post, which it is not clear that it is,
your copy and posted generalised post makes no sense and has
no relationship with what I have written.
Randomly scanning through posts and copying and pasting
your one comment, which mentions licking peoples behinds
anywhere near my post-comment is behaviour which belongs elsewhere.
Perhaps I misjudged you when I (repeatedly) suggested UKIP should have you running communications.
Photo 1 shows Martin Sellner with some people. Photo 2 is an unsourced German magazine article that accuses a 21-year old Martin S. (and was hence written in about 2010) of being a far right extremist.
Neither photo remotely provides evidence that Martin Sellner is, as Mr. Bav claims, “an out an out Nazi”, now, not eight years ago.
Sorry to press you, but I’m fed up of being lied to that people are Nazis when they’re not. If you have any evidence from Martin Sellner’s recent speeches or writings that he is “an out and out Nazi”, produce it. If you or Mr. Bav can’t, this article is libellous.