Well, the Banks & Farage show has now finally coalesced. Banks, in his latest Leave.EU communication, again told Kippers to join the Tories. The ‘Leave means Leave’ group has now also been revived, and Nigel trumpeted that he’s supporting them – even though they are mainly Tories and advocate joining that Party to achieve Brexit. This has left many of us a bit puzzled – and today’s letters reflect this. The first letter is from our contributor Alan Yates:
Sir,
Tonight (17th Aug) I received an email from Leave.EU. Remember that Arron Banks supported and gave money to UKIP during the referendum campaign, he was also, I believe, a member. Well – no longer, it seems, as he is now encouraging us all to join the Tories and back Boris. As a UKIP member now in my 15th year with the party I am certainly not going to follow the advice of moneybags Banks. We want grassroot Tories and Labour supporters to join us if they are dissatisfied with their party.
Read the article on the Leave.eu website.
Respectfully, Alec Yates, UKIP Tiverton & Honiton
Our contributor and correspondent Roger Arthur has sent in his observations:
Sir,
Some are puzzled by the positions taken by Arron Banks and Nigel Farage. My response:
NF has made clear that he does not advocate joining the Tory Party.
For their part the majority of Tory MPs are Remainers and it would take many years to drain that swamp.
Those MPs are the ones who shortlist 2 leadership candidates, for constituency members to vote on. They do not want more Brexiteers in Parliament, and certainly not one in No 10 – because they do not want Brexit.
Tory party membership has fallen to around 100,000 such that big party donors have even more influence on policy – and many of them do not want Brexit.
God knows what Banks thinks he can do to change that.
If you are a Brexiteer, then the Tory Party is not for you.
If that is not enough then reflect on the spin and deception over the years by Tory leaders from Heath through Cameron to May.
Respectfully, Roger Arthur
Many Kippers however regard Farage’s support for ‘Leave means Leave’ with suspicion. I urge you to read this article in Kipper Central, by their Editor-in-Chief, reflecting what many of us think. It is definitely odd when one reflects on what Farage has done for UKIP ever since he left as leader … and makes one wonder why he isn’t supporting UKIP, for example in the articles he writes for the Torygraph.
Finally, we publish a long letter from our reader Elizabeth Curzon-Howe which she sent to Arron Banks:
Dear Mr. Banks,
Thank you for your message requesting that I join the Conservative Party in order to Unite the Right to achieve Brexit, and I applaud you for trying, but I am a loyal and dedicated member of UKIP and believe in its vision and aims, therefore nothing would persuade me to re-join a party that I used to support because it stood for Family Christian Values, honesty, hard work, principles and respect, but sadly no longer and the reason I will be declining your offer. I think many of my fellow UKIPers will likely be feeling the same way as I do, many of them having ‘lent’ their vote to the Conservative Party in the 2017 General Election, after being persuaded to do so, to keep Labour out, and because of that poor UKIP suffered its worst G.E., ever, losing over 3 million votes, which was extremely disheartening for us. Frankly I feel rather upset to be asked to re-join a Party that is totally unprincipled and rotten to the core [our membership of the E.U. is illegal and against our Constitution and no-one in the judiciary is prepared to bring those responsible to justice] by someone who strongly supported UKIP and Nigel Farage’s charismatic leadership during the Referendum. Personally, I think if you believe in UKIP and have any loyalty left for the party, you should help us achieve Proportional Representation as well as increase the membership, which you could do easily with your Leave E.U. on-line presence. UKIP would then be able to gain seats in Westminster, which would change the landscape of the Commons and produce a much fairer representative government; this is what the country desperately needs, not more of the same! Also where were all the other parties during the Referendum, under your heading of Unite the Right to achieve Brexit, because I lost count of the number of times that Nigel tried to get them to join him on the various platforms, mostly to no avail.
If anyone needs persuading to get us out of this unholy mess, it must be the Brexit Conservative MPs and their loyal party members; they need to show some backbone, grit and courage [just like our ancestors] and act upon their principles, because up to now they have not done very much. If it had been left to the C.P. activists to get us Brexit, it would not have happened, I know that because trying to persuade any of them to come out and leaflet with UKIPers, was almost impossible, they kept their heads below the parapet and would rather sit at home and let someone else do the work. UKIP members like myself, not to mention our MEPs were completely and utterly exhausted from the campaigning, working seven days a week, with no break and we simply did not have enough helpers or resources.
Therefore Aaron if you wish to make Brexit happen, it is the grassroots of the party who need to take action, by replacing their M.P’s who are Remainers in a constituency that voted to Leave, mine being one of them with a 3,000 majority, but it seems as though it is ‘business as usual’ for our MP, Mel Stride, also a Treasury Minister, working alongside Philip Hammond – enough said! Unfortunately there are too many Cabinet Members and MP’s who are Remainers and that is the problem [same in the Lords], but I do not think it fair to ask UKIP members to join or re-join the C.P., as we have given our all and done enough both physically and financially for our country, and would have appreciated more support and encouragement from people like yourself.
UKIP is unique, it is a grassroots party, mainly funded by its members, it is Patriotic, has a Vision for Great Britain, unlike the other parties, and it is the only collective political group who believe in the traditions and culture of our country, so we must make sure that UKIP has a bright future and receives strong support from those who are fortunate enough to be in a position to influence the general public. UKIP, also does not believe in career politicians, nor Life Peerages for votes!
Yours sincerely,
Elizabeth Curzon-Howe
As a member of For Britain, I was asked to vote whether the party should campaign for Proportional Representation at Parliamentary level. Overjoyed to learn that 88% voted in favour and it will now become part of party policy and in the manifesto.
Why don’t UKIP ask the membership about that?
Don’t hold yer breadth waiting.
Boing!
Wrong.
In UKIP we don’t need to poll our members about PR, it’s already UKIP policy and been so for a long time. I often attend Make Votes Matter gatherings.
While some forms of PR (e.g., AV, as advocated by the Libdems in 2010) are very unsound, others aren’t.
Rob, I believe UKIP is very much in favour of PR, I thought that was widely known. But it won’t happen in our lifetimes, so not worth wasting energy discussing it. It’s a shame we’ve had a split, most UKIP members agree broadly with FB’s views but with limited resources, we can’t do it all and Brexit comes first. Without proper borders, Britain is finished.
I will never understand the mindset of some Kippers.
Listen to all of you talking about strategically voting or even joining LabCon. For some reason, you think that will achieve something other than boost the numbers of Labour and/or Tory voters, which of course will be reported as UKIP popularity and assumably support for BREXIT plummiting. UKIP has reiterated the party’s prime drive as BREXIT, so, I mean, duh??
Even if every Kipper, For Britain supporter and everyone right of centre did this, ie vote for the Brexit candidate, party notwithstanding, I doubt it would make any noticeable difference. And when you drill that down to individual constituencies.. well, forget it guys. Because probably two-thirds of LabCon voters daren’t vote away from their party for fear of The Other Lot getting in. Without regard to their feelings about their particular local MP.
Using the “if enough people did this” pipedream, actually joining the Tory party, they think they can materially change the internal machinery at leadership elections, not realising that the Conservative party constitution is just a pretty piece of paper which looks jolly democratic. The people who own and operate the Tory party will make sure there is a remainer candidate in the last two, and if they are both remainers then the Dirty Tricks Dept can stand down from DEFCON 1. The owning people are the corporate business leaders and major donors to that party, and guess whether they want Britain to leave the EU or not.
Even with current UKIP policy to fight every possible seat, sad to say Mr Bav has at least one thing right, which is that UKIP is wasting its time trying to win using the Tories’ protection system, that is FPTP. The arithmetic is at a constituency level guys, national share of vote don’t count under FPTP. Some of you seem to think the whole concept of Proportional Representation is against the laws of physics or something.
Thinking the Tory Party can be manipulated from the inside – now THAT is against the laws of physics.
Boing!
Right.
Freddy Vaccha is right.The Tory Leadership Election when it comes will have AS ITS PRIME OBJECTIVE the continuation of the domination of the party by the clique established many decades ago after the departure of the last real conservative leaders in the 1950s – Churchill and Eden, since when the party has been turned into a Blairite vehicle for the post-nation corporatist neoliberal Establishment. May is their latest puppet in a long line since Macmillan. Thus , just as in 2001 , they will try to “engineer” a choice for the Tory peasantry between a closet Remainer and a “fake” Leaver , both “approved” by the Establishment. The closet Remainer will be someone like Savid Javed . The fake Leaver will probably be BloJo who will be given enormous support in the media ( including, stupidly, by Leave.EU) . If a genuine Leaver (let’s say David Davis) stands, he will be marginalised by the presstitutes and thus be unlikely to stop BloJo being the “Leave” choice. Mogg may or may not stand a better chance. If it’s BloJo he will probably become PM. If it’s Davis or Mogg, which I doubt, there would be an enormous volte-face in the corporate media in favour of Javed. In 2001, of course, the “wild card” IDS did manage to blindside Portillo and get through to the “final” where he easily beat Clarke. I suppose there is a possibility of this happening again.
Arron Banks really has no idea. Tory members really do not matter. I once had a chat with former Tory MP defected to UKIP Piers Merchant(RIP). He told me that the Tory party is truly medieval – the Aristocracy and Peasantry and that the former piss on the latter.
Peter
Spot on Peter. Just repeating what I said elsewhere, there is no chance of the Tories choosing a Brexiteer. The Times/Soros Mouthpiece is already hard at work demolishing Boris Johnson, much more to come and then they’ll turn on JRM, the knives are already out. Arron Banks might have bullied his way to some success in business but in politics he’s a buffoon. The ONLY way to achieve Brexit is at the ballot box, by supporting UKIP candidates and screwing up the LibLabCon cartel. That was Farage’s original, brilliant plan…until the Tories offered him some sort of deal to dump UKIP.
I have long believed that Nigel Farage was offered some sort of grubby deal by the Tories soon after the referendum. They probably said ‘Nigel old chum, leave us to deliver Brexit, trust us’. He was conned. I know that sounds shocking but ‘I want to get my life back’ cuts no ice if you think about it objectively. If he was ‘tired’ why did he go off galavanting with Trump and then take up a radio post at LBC? Nigel was persuaded to dump UKIP, it’s also the only logical explanation for him backing Bolton.
His latest claims about ‘not advocating joining the Tories’ are bare faced lies; he’s all over Twitter saying EXACTLY the opposite with a big, juicy Leave.EU meme, with his mugshot, it reads: ‘FARAGE JOINS TORY GROUP, LEAVE MEANS LEAVE, JOIN THE TORIES TODAY’. How much clearer can the evidence be?
He doesn’t support UKIP now he doesn’t mention UKIP anymore, he refuses to support Gerard Batten in any way.
I know this is all very shocking for Farage lovers but you need to face the facts, Nigel has gone back to the Tory party, he’s been nobbled, bought off or both. Maybe they have something on him…
To avoid embarrassment, I suggest those keen on the idea first research how Tory leaders are chosen nowadays before spouting off about grand plans to infiltrate the Cons from within.
The plans won’t work at all, and the result will either be the status quo (more likely) or an even worse PM than May (e.g. Soubry).
If you don’t understand why, scroll through the comments below before weighing in.
All this has more to do with knighthoods and peerages than with getting rid of PM May, in my opinion….
Realistically, the only thing any UKIP member can do, pre ‘Brexit March’, to accelerate the process or stop it being sabotaged is to make it abundantly clear that -if they live in a Tory majority constituency – Tory Remainer area ( like me ) they will vote for the next candidate likely to topple the Tory IF there might be a general election in the autumn.
In my case I have a notorious Remoaner in the Sir Bufton Tufton class – in a massively Leave constituency who could be ousted – at a push . UKIP are in disarray here and between now and March I cannot see any alternative to bounce the bounder unless I voted Labour.
Before we gasp in horror, it would be a means to an end.
Another option ( which can run concurrently ) would be to join the Tories, go to local constituency meetings and raise merry hell in the hope the bounder can be de-selected. If I join the Tories and enough of the MPs write their letters to the 1922 committee then in three months I could vote for Boris or JRM, both of whom would walk a general election and both of whom would deliver Brexit.
UKIP cannot and will not win a SINGLE parliamentary seat with the current arithmetic or share of intending voting. NOT ONE.
Stop dreaming.
Nor will Farage achieve anything other than risk his (£500k plus) contract with LBC if he backs a UKIP close to creeping outside of the Overton Window . He knows what the limits are and is not going to stretch them for UKIP. So forget about him.
In conclusion, the way to hit our primary target (achieve Brexit ) can only be by persuading the Tories to boot May into touch OR by individual MP’s being in such fear (self-interest) of a general election that they listen to us.
Joining the Tories to do this will cost c £9 over 3 months, when this battle will be decided one way or the other. It is not outside UKIP rules either.
Worth thinking about.
This call to join the Tories is matched, and in diametric conflict, with the decision by UKIP’s NEC, communicated in a recent message from the Chairman, to field candidates in every constituency against all comers.
This way, if there is a GE the Brexit camp will be split. With our FPTP voting system this leads inevitably to failure.
We must ensure somehow that in each constituency there is only ONE, I repeat only ONE, pro-Brexit candidate, whether Tory or UKIP or even Labour (eg why oppose Kate Hoey or Gisela Stuart?). One candidate will draw all the pro-Brexit votes in that constituency, and stand a good chance of coming out top, especially if the anti-Brexit vote is divided amongst two or more other parties.
This is the only way to get a withdrawalist majority Parliament that will reflect the referendum vote and ensure Brexit is implemented without further ado.
UKIP will therefore have to decide, constituency by constituency, if there is a reliably pro-Brexit candidate from another Party and if so not to field our own candidate, but to support that candidate. Of course care and discretion will need to be exercised in order not to support a fake Brexiteer.
Obviously if all the other candidates in a constituency are anti-Brexit we must field our UKIP candidate, and then campaign strongly and confidently for all those who voted Leave to vote for us. We must remind voters that UKIP is the only Party that has always been in favour of the policy that won a MAJORITY vote in 2016. We must indulge in no silly nonsense talking about us being the “third” or even the “second” “party in British politics” – this only presents us as losers and discourages voters from voting for us, even if they agree with us on policy.
We must not let Party pride or “party patriotism” gets in the way of this tactic. If we announce in advance that this will be our tactic, it will encourage other parties’ constituency associations to select pro-Brexit candidates rather than anti-Brexit ones. Our pre-election polling weight of 10-15% or whatever will thus be deployed to its greatest advantage, and will enable us to punch above our weight in order to attain our objective.
Totally agree Torquil. It is a pipe dream and pure grandstanding to aim to ‘stand a candidate in every constituency’. We don’t have enough good quality people, we will be spread hopelessly thin. Far better to focus finite resources where it matters. In one Council election recently, UKIP polled 18 votes. Yes 18 votes. What did that achieve, other than revealing how hopelessly weak we are in some areas and giving our enemies the chance to do some sums? If Nigel Farage couldn’t win a seat at the height of our popularity, what chance is there now? ZERO. But we CAN nobble a few Remain MPs and make headlines.
Totally agree, and as you suggest announce in advance that this will be our tactic. Incidentally,i thought that was what we were advised to do at the last GE. I think the announcement in advance is vital.
Great article, well done Elisabeth. So spot on, This evening when I received the latest e-mail from Leave.eu requesting that I join the Conservative Party, I unsubscribed myself from that site altogether. Does Leave.eu seriously believe that there new role should be an offshoot of the conservative party recruitment department. The people in charge of Leave,eu have seriously lost the plot, and no longer deserve our support. I was then asked by Leave.eu for feedback as to why I had made the decision to unsubscribe. Do not insult me intelligence I said. Why should I leave UKIP, the only mainstream political party that is fully committed to complete independence from the European Union. I will never join the conservative party, which at best is half hearted about leaving the EU, offering no vision or leadership on just about every area of government policy. The conservative party are administered and led by complete half wits. If the conservative party had been a private company it would have gone bust ages ago,
Well done Colin.
I did see on his Facebook page yesterday evening that Nigel Farage had distanced himself from comments made by Arron Banks, and that he did not recommend people join the Conservative Party.
It is still infinitely disappointing to read through the comments and see so many people wanting Nigel to ‘come back’ as UKIP leader, and that ‘only Nigel can save Brexit’, or more worryingly that ‘we need a new party’.
Then again, his posts do read as:
-“I’m not advocating joining the Conservative Party under Mrs May. You must be joking! If everyone left UKIP and joined the Tories that would be bad news for Brexit.”
And then we have:
-“We must all get behind Leave Means Leave.”
Leave Means Leave is great at what it is, a pressure group, so yes it is good for people to get behind and back them. But the question remains, why is Nigel Farage not advocating people to ‘get behind UKIP’? UKIP is a political party, and while it does not (yet) have any MPs, it does have representation in the Welsh Assembly as well as the European Parliament (for all the good that does admittedly).
Leave Means Leave is not a political party, and thus has no chance of winning seats in Parliament at any forthcoming election, and thus having any influence in the House Of Commons.
I would feel far more comfortable (and happy!) if Nigel Farage were to make some statement along the lines of:
“We must all get behind Leave Means Leave and UKIP in order to put pressure on the Government”.
Nigel has thousands of followers who believe that only he can ‘save Brexit’ and he can only do that as leader of UKIP. By refusing to endorse UKIP or to encourage his followers to join or back UKIP, is he guilty of helping to hold back UKIP?
Thanks for those quotes from Nigel’s Facebook page. It is indeed, well, let’s say interesting that he isn’t mentioning UKIP, never mind backing Gerard Batten. If I were given to conspiracy theories ….
Nigel did it after an outcry going through social media. Besides “the Conservative Party under Mrs May” is not the same as “the Conservative Party” full stop.
If you do not know why something is going on it usually about the money.
> it usually about the money
and where it’s not, it’s often about gongs etc.
If there remains one little link with the EUSSR post Brexit, the remainiacs will be working to extend it until we are back where we are.
It is rumoured that my fish assisted Corbyn’s victory in the Labour election. They semaphored they’d have preferred Abbott, but JC (attended the Nuremberg Rally, according to a photograph – but only because he thought it was a car race) was next best.
So, could someone explain why on earth I should trust the Tories?
Firstly, policy-wise they aren’t conservatives any more, and haven’t been since before they ousted Maggie. Their only decent policies are ones they nicked from us a year or two earlier.
As far as I can see, most are goddamned closet socialists, timeservers and assorted idiots.
75% of their MPs are Brexiteers, including Brexiteers as rabid as what can be found waving their legs and antennae around in the Libdem cesspit.
“75% of their MPs are Brexiteers” – really, Freddy? If that were in fact the case we’d not have got Ms May nor Chequers.
I think you mean they’re remainers, as ordinary grassroots Tories attest.
Of course, you are totally correct! About 75% of 2017 Tory MPs are Remainers.
Too much excitement for one day, with these LML and Leave.EU publications, Hitler, bookshops, lack of spot-edit facility in UD comments, etc… 🙂
Thinking back, the last ‘true’ Tory was probably the Duke of Wellington; certainly his successor the Earl Grey bequeathed the nation a tea which is no way robust. As for Disraeli. let’s face it, the man was a novelist and whoever heard of one who wasn’t a pinko bleeding heart liberal? No, the Tory party has always relied on support from large swathes of the population who believe that ‘their’ party has only recently lost it’s way and is sure to get back on track once the current incumbent of No 10 has been replaced by a ‘true’ Tory.
even when we leave the eu, remainers will still be in control of this country to carry on working behind our backs to carry on as usual
What you overlook is that the Tory Members of Parliament decide on who the final two candidates are to go forward for election by the membership. Considering the Remainer Tory MPs are in the majority, they are extremely unlikely to select a Leaver as one of the two.
Joining the Conservative Party would only give the illusion that its leadership is doing something right and popular, which is not the case. It has long been subverted by Cultural Marxists who have taken control and intend to wreck Brexit, as well as force through further reform of the Gender Recognition Act, and the crushing of genuine social conservatives who seek to reverse Islamisation and attacks on our traditional Christian culture.
Great letter from Elizabeth. Written from the heart and expresses so much of what we all feel.
I am perfectly happy to join the Conservatives in order to vote for a Brexiteer leader. I don’t see what all the fuss from the old guard is about. I will still vote UKIP in all elections. If I have to cancel my UKIP membership (8 or 9 years I think) I can just as easily rejoin afterwards. It’s not as if I am asking for my money back.
Badger,
O dear…
The Conservative Party is not UKIP. Or the Labour Party.
To get to vote in a Brexiteer PM, you will first need to become a Tory MP.
How are you planning to accomplish that?
If the voting system stays as it was in 2016 then Tory party members from across the country will get the opportunity to vote in a postal ballot in order to chose between the two final candidates for leadership. If there are no changes to that then every member of the party can vote. You do not need to be an MP to be eligible for that ballot. So, if the MPs whittle the choice for leader down to two, and one of them is Dominic Grieve (boos) and the other is Boris Johnson (muted applause) then party members will have the final say. Get it?
@Badger, firstly you have to have a Leadership contest and despite all rumors, it is not that obvious, then you can expect various games to select a “proper candidates” (similar to 2016 election). So you will get a choice between Sajid Javid and Jeremy Hunt, who do you vote. With Conservatives, it is even more irrelevant what are the grassroots opinions and choices – top hierarchy is the only thing that matters.
> Get it?
O dear…
I see Snow Elephant beat me to this – and is completely correct.
Given that almost 75% of the Cons+DUP MPs are Remainers, and if we exclude the DUP it is over 75%, much bigger than 2/3 and therefore able with a little discreet arrangement to secure both #1 and #2 slots in internal contests, what makes you think the binary choice to be offered will be between (say) Grieve and Blo-Jo?
Nothing to stop the MPs offering Anna SOUBRY and Dominic Grieve…. what will you do with that, Badger?
Furthermore, “Amnesty for Illegals” Boris is no saviour. I recall clearly the passion and conviction in his pro-EU speeches. Back in November 2014, I took him on face to face in a large hall, and it got so heated (uncontrolled mass immigration and power-limiting vacuum cleaners for “personal” safety were mentioned) that some thought he was going to jump off the podium and head for me. He’s a bruiser OK, but up to the time he came down for Leave, he had two speeches in his pocket. He chose the one more likely, in his judgement, to make him PM. That he didn’t make it may well be that the high Tories have something on him.
So, I’m afraid, no cookie.
Have you understood the utter nonsense you have written here, I will join the conservatives to get a Brexiteer in but will still vote UKIP. I assume you are not a UKIP activist and not fully committed to our cause otherwise you wouldn’t be sloping off to join a party that has totally lost the plot. You will have to wait a full 3 months before getting a chance to vote on anything including a new leader. The chances are that Theresa May will fall after the conservative party conference next month, which is within the 3 month period
If I joined the Conservatives simply to be eligible to vote for a Brexiteer to replace May, whoever he or she may be, exercise that vote (should I become eligible – i.e. three months or more later) and then resign from the party and rejoin UKIP, where is is the nonsense in that? I don’t think you understand what I am saying. The way you are talking sounds like you think I will vote for them in 2022 – where did you get that idea from?
You are mistaken about the proceess, Badger.
So which one will you choose when the only two names on the ballot paper are:
GRIEVE, Dominic
SOUBRY, Anna
?
Dear Viv,
I have just read the article you recommended on Kipper Central concerning Nigel’s lack of support for UKIP, since he stepped down as Leader after the Referendum, and the Editor is absolutely right and certainly mirrors my own views on the matter. All very sad really, because without the loyal UKIP supporters he would not be where he is today.
Firstly I was worried about Nigel, but he has made in abundantly clear he does not condone joining Tories.
However it seams everyone disagrees with him. Michael Heaver, Dan Jukes, Raheem Kassam, Arron Banks all normally can’t wait to RT hm on Twitter. On this, not a single one has done so, None resound either. The last comma from Leave EU I was asked to join Tories. I gave a swift response & unregistered. I’ve stopped direct debits to Leave.EU also.
I respect Nigel, the rest including those who are supposed to represent him I do not.
For me to vote tory would require a lot more than the leave issue. Thy would need to cut out the Marixst filth they are spreading in every year at schools . They would have to address the immigration problem head on. They would have to address the problem ( although we are told there is not one ) of a certain faith if that’s what they call it. They would have to stop this PC lunacy throughout every profession including government , the police , the councils , the schools , the colleges , the universities , slash the overseas aid budget and stop the licence fee for the BBC .
If any party isnt prepared to meet these issues head on then we stay the same as we are.
Too right, but not of that will ever happen ( they think) because we can’t be seen as the nasty party, can we!
what’s wrong with just joining the Tories for the leadership vote, to get a Brexiteer and be rid of May? You just go back to UKIP for any other elections.
But, just who is this wonderful human being you wish to vote for Badger ?
“My” Badger, from Wind in the Willows, was a knowledgeable chap, and did his research before storming Toad Hall to clear out the ferrets and the weasels…
io, I think Badger is plumping for Anna Soubry, whom we can trust to deliver “Brexit – Her Max” via unlimited further Referendums until the desired result is obtaining. Or perhaps Justine Greening?
Badger, I do not see the arguments against joining the CP (for a short period) other than some people would not under any circumstances as a matter of pride. As I wrote seven out of ten Conservatives Constituencies are voted to leave the EU in the Referendum. They would hardly vote for Anna Soubrary or any other Remainer. If it comes to an election after a vote of no confidence in Teresa May I doubt that the MPs would suggest out an outright Remainer.
Please stop spreading disinformation and errors.
Minor things like “Soubrary”, “Teresa”, “are voted”, etc are not what I’m referring to.
It is the misrepresentation of the way in which the Cons select their leader. Round 1 voting is exclusively by Tory MPs. Who, whatever nonsense you claim to the contrary, are overwhelmingly anti-Brexit, and are not going to shortlist a Brexiteer. So joining the Con party simply gives the Cons money and confidence they can continue to defy the people’s will.
I see your IP address resolves to London but I have no person of your name ever having been a member, supporter or enquirer of/for UKIP.
What is your purpose here? Who are you? What is your connection to lettertothepm.co.uk?
I am tempted to ignore your further provocations here, especially the one about numbers (below), and I recommend others ignore you too.
Our openness here in UKIPDaily has a price, and I think you’re it.
And thanks for calling me, in the best tradition of trolls, a troll… Busted.
My advice to my Tory friends is that if you are unhappy with our PM, the Chequers deal and their BREXIT strategy then YOU MUST TELL YOUR MP YOU WILL NOT VOTE TORY. The only thing that changes politicians’ minds is them losing votes. Currently, the two major parties rely on the fact that despite great dissatisfaction their historical voters keep voting for them. In a two party system, neither of the main parties is ever a loser, at least not for long. That is why they are so paranoid about the possibility of a third party spoiling their show. It was the very significant success that UKIP achieved in local elections that forced Cameron to offer the BREXIT referendum. This shows the level of fear when voters march with their feet.
The party that has the most MPs that voted leaving the EU is the Conservative party. They had 139 who said they would vote to leave, Twenty others said they would vote to leave. We need to replace Teresa May as prime minister as one can hardly believe what she says. Quoting from Aron Banks:
“It is likely that a Conservative Party leadership contest will be held in the next 3 to 6 months.
Whoever wins it will automatically be our Prime Minister.
After becoming a Conservative Party member, you will be eligible to vote in the final round of that contest.
You will therefore have a hand in choosing our next Prime Minister – and in determining the kind of Brexit that Britain gets.
It is not too late to save Brexit or the country.
You can help to achieve the clean Brexit this country voted for by backing a Brexit candidate in any future leadership election.”
This is makes sense to me as a means of removing May. Members of the CP do have power.
So join the CP and later vote UKIP or whoever.
Join the CP, contribute your membership fee to the remain-facing Central Office, and wonder why they then ignore the grass-roots like they have always done in recent years?
If the Tories have 139 who want to leave, that means they 177 who don’t.
Personally I think Nigel is right to support the leave campaign alongside John Longworth and Richard Tice. Any momentum he can add to stop May’s treachery must be a good thing and I agree too, that joining their party is a waste of money, given how Central Office now control the Party, rather than the associations.
My difficulty is wondering why in Ukip ranks, there are still far too many who don’t see the long term treachery within the Conservative ranks and call it out for what it is. Spin? Or Deliberate lies ?
The destruction of our nation and culture is pure Kalergi plan and the purpose of the Nazi-designed EU. Cultural Marxism, destroy the state from the inside, allied to Common Purpose, deliberately promoted by Blair. Gerrard is a last calling it. DK still a bit shy.
We are a genuine cross Party alliance. But the electorate are not hearing that enough imho. So I’m happy to see Nigel (a pure Thatcherite) get involved and would to see our Party expose the bare bones of what is happening, and why.
> If the Tories have 139 who want to leave
Alan, you are too kind.
I’ve removed everything contributed from IP address 80.189.74.141 as nonsense.
Stronger words do occur to me.
The strength of UKIPDaily is that it is an open forum. And all strengths are also ….
My reply to you sir, is get lost!
Bird brained by admission!
> Bird brained by admission!
Geoff, you are following the diktats of the User Guide to Internet Trolls.
Show some imagination, man!
Consider my offer to sell you a bridge to lurk under.
Not all of us here are stupid.
Seconded.
Quite so, RobC. This “Geoff Edwards” is here to spread disinformation. Probably sent by the Conservatives…
Geoff, I thought the influence of Tory party membership was limited to voting on the final two, who are chosen by the Parliamentary members who are largely europhiles.
Yes Marie, the quote does say “final round” So the party membership will have the final say on who would be our next prime minister.
Great choice!
Justine Greening or Anna Soubry.
Death by “Perpetuum Mobile of Referendums” or by a “Thousand Cuts” (with fingers up bottoms)?
Move over, Hobson!
Greening or Soubry could not win a general election. Nor will May. Even the dumbest Tory knows that.
The Tories in marginal seats have to ride off the back of either Johnson or JRM, lest they collect their P45s.
NO OTHER TORY can carry a snap election. It will mean a Corbyn victory.
Given the choice of lets say Hunt or Johnson, the Tory grassroots WILL vote Johnson, including perhaps 10,000 entryists.
In the meantime UKIP can’t even get on the telly to talk about anything, and the conference will not be covered by any broadcaster, we have no MPs, no published policy, no dynamic website and are not ready for a snap election.
However …Time marches on, and we cannot evade the run up towards Brexit, or Chequers Brexit…..
Let us analyse your assertion:
> Greening or Soubry could not win a general election. Nor will May. Even the dumbest Tory knows that.
But the Parliamentary Party *did*, in July 2016, select May, and by overwhelming majority. Despite her six year track record of failure and incompetence at the Home Office.
For enough of them, remaining in the EU is like religion. They will proceed, lemming-like, down paths they think most likely to leave us enmeshed in the socialist uber-state. And for many of them, there are prospects of grace and favour jobs after they are removed from office.
So what is the basis for your faith in the omniscience, or at least judgement, of Tory MPs to put a leaver (like, say, JRM) in the final two?
I reiterate – the grassroots members won’t be given a chance. It’ll be a fit-up.
As far as I’m aware, new members have to wait three months before being allowed to vote in Conservative Party elections, so something of a weak gamble.
Cranky, Aron does say 3-6 months. Not a weak gamble. Remember that 7 out of 10 Conservative constituencies voted to Leave the EU.
The membership only gets to vote on the 2 candidates shortlisted by the Parliamentary Party…
Game over.
Unless you wish to explain why Soubry or Grieve will be an improvement over Treason May.
Tosh.
The Cons fear only one thing — losing votes with the threat of losing seats.
Joining them will encourage their mendacity.
JF
> Joining them will encourage their mendacity.
Absolutely.
Geoff, there seems no end to the **** from you. And you calling me a “troll” is rich – standard fare for trolls like yourself, though.
Let’s look at a little bit of your ****.
Per what you claim above, 139+20 = 159 Conservative MPs voted to leave.
There are 317 Conservative MPs.
159/317 = 50.2%
So, according to this “Geoff Edwards”, the majority of current Conservative MPs are leavers…
To whoever sent you – please can you send someone smarter next time, please?
Freddy, the “others” are twenty MPs who are not Conservative. so the figure is 139/317. Forty four percent. The “others” was a term used in the article. The following quote is different to where I found the stats.
Most members of the House of Commons are believed to have voted Remain in the EU referendum.
According to a survey of all 650 MPs carried out by the Press Association ahead of the referendum on June 23:
:: 480 MPs said they would be voting Remain, including 184 Conservatives
:: 159 MPs said they would be voting Leave, including 139 Conservatives *****
:: 11 MPs were undeclared, including four Conservatives
This gives Remain a notional Commons majority of at least 310.
Some 218 Labour MPs said they would vote Remain while just 11 backed Leave.
All eight Liberal Democrat MPs intended to vote Remain, along with all 56 SNP MPs, all three Plaid Cymru MPs, all four Sinn Fein MPs and all three SDLP MPs.
Green MP Caroline Lucas also said she would vote Remain, as did independent MP Sylvia Hermon and the two Ulster Unionist MPs.
The eight DUP MPs said they would be voting to Leave, along with Ukip MP Douglas Carswell.
There is no need to do any research to dismiss this drivel.
Inter alia, has it occurred to you that between the date on what you claim is reliable data (that nearly half of Conservative MPs are Brexiteers!!) was ascertained and now there has been a General Election?
As Donald Duck said to you, “My reply to you sir, is get lost!” (seconded by Rob C). So, return to lurk under the bridge whenceforth you came, thanks.
Your motives are plain for all to see…
Freddy It is not my “claim” the figures are those published by the Press Association.
Moroever, at the key 2017 General Election you somehow “overlooked”, intervening as it did between your “pre-Referendum” poll (more about it later) and now, 71 seats changed hands. Of these changes, 54 involved a Conservative loss or gain, and the net change in the Cons was to swell the Remainer %.
Here are the 33 Con losses in 2017: Bath, Battersea, Bedford, Brighton, Kemptown, Bristol North West, Bury North, Canterbury, Cardiff North, Colne Valley, Crewe & Nantwich, Croydon Central, Derby North, Eastbourne, Enfield, Southgate, Gower, High Peak, Ipswich, Keighley, Kensington, Kingston & Surbiton, Lincoln, Oxford West & Abingdon, Peterborough, Plymouth, Sutton & Devonport, Portsmouth South, Reading East, Stockton South, Stroud, Twickenham, Vale of Clwyd, Warrington South, Warwick & Leamington and Weaver Vale.
Here are their 21 gains, mainly from the SNP: Aberdeen South, Angus, Ayr, Carrick & Cumnock, Banff & Buchan, Berwickshire, Roxburgh & Selkirk, Clacton, Copeland, Dumfries & Galloway, Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale & Tweeddale, East Renfrewshire, Gordon, Mansfield, Middlesbrough South & East Cleveland, Moray, North East Derbyshire, Ochil & South Perthshire, Southport, Stirling, Stoke-on-Trent South, Walsall North and West Aberdeenshire & Kincardine.
Now lets look at your “calculation”.
“139/317. Forty four percent.”
So, in the numerator, you have the alleged number of Brexiteer Cons BEFORE the June 2016 referendum (you quote “159 MPs said they would be voting Leave, including 139 Conservatives”).
And in the denominator, you have 317, the number of Con MPs AFTER the June 2017 general election (the number before it was 317+33-21 = 329).
Hahaha! Anything to boost the figures, eh?
Looks like you had Diane Abbott do the maths for you…
So you believed Cameron when he told you UKIPpers were thick, did you?
You’re a busted flush.
Freddy In brief. Prior to the Referendum to Leave or Remain in the EU. 139 Conservative MPs stated they would Leave the EU. That is 44 percent of Conservative MPs support leave. The figures are from the Press Association. We do not have any recent figures, and it doesn’t matter. You’re wasting your and my time.
139 is 44% of 317.
But the number of Conservative MPs just before the Referendum was not 317.
It was 329.
It is utter nonsense, Ms Abbott, to divide the alleged 139 Con Brexiteers (pre-2017 election) by 317 (post-2017 election) total.
And 139 / 329 is not 44%.
I don’t have the time to teach basic arithmetic or logic, sorry. Go and troll somewhere else.
in your words Freddy what you wrote is utter nonsense. I wanted to find out how many Conservatives were going to vote to leave the EU. I found that information and published it on this forum. 139.
We don’t know whether the Conservative MPs who lost their seats would have been those who voted to Leave. Perhaps they were those who voted to Remain. So for anyone finding this post prior to the Referendum 44 percent of Conservative MP’s intended to vote to Leave membership of the EU.
Well said Elizabeth. Wouldn’t it be nice if UKIP membership increased beyond the point where it need not crave big donors?
Mr. King,
Thank you, what about all the people who were members of the 16 + Associations that made up Leave E.U. during the Referendum Campaign? If a majority of them could be persuaded to come and join us, that would be wonderful.
There are many other groups too – Example: encouraging members of the Fishing and Farming Communities, Small Business Associations etc., by inviting them to come along to some of our meetings and gatherings, casual drink in a Pub, Hotel Bar and so on. I know many of these things are already happening, and I am preaching to the converted, but we need to do more, myself included because extra members will hopefully transfer into more activists!
Have people not been paying attention? Banks been saying this since the last GE when he had his ludicrous ‘put country before party’ idea. He tried to take over and failed. Sour grapes.
Nigel has at least to my knowledge spoken against people joining the con party, in a attempt to change the leadership. Once on his LBC show where he says he didn’t agree with Aaron Banks on this issue and also on his Twitter page.
Yes Marilyn, But the current time offers a real opportunity to rid ourselves of a hopeless PM and get a Brexiteer.
No it doesn’t. You’ll get a choice between two remainders and your joining the Cons will give the traitors heart.
JF
Julian we don’t know who the MPs would vote for. But do you really think that they would attempt to foist a remainer on us? I doubt whether Joining the CP would give the traitors more heart, it will be evident that the recent membership application rush is hardly the result of the public wanting to bolster up Teresa May. Or maybe you think it could be? They already know that people are joining the CP to attempt to get rid of the PM. I wonder how they are dealing with the rush of new applicants, rubber stamp them?
“But do you really think that they would attempt to foist a Remainder on us?”
Yes, they are quite capable of another betrayal. When I was interviewed for Radio Suffolk with Matthew Hancock in 2017, I teased him about his running on a Leave manifesto when he had campaigned against. Well, apparently he had had a complete change of heart and now realised that Leave was the best thing to do, and he’d support Mrs May totally.
Leave means Leave was a fundamental untruth, so his mendacity has been rewarded with a cabinet post.
Young Matthew has now submerged and is hiding until the whole thing blows over, to emerge later unblemished by principle, honesty or loyalty to his residents.
Here’s what they will do. They’ll select two candidates, one ostensibly Leave, one Remain, neither very definite in their opinions. If the ‘Leave’ candidate wins there’ll be a brief flurry of Brexit words and then the sell-out will resume.
These people are liars. They do it for a living. It’s naive to assume anything else.
JF
Geoff, may I sell you a nice folding bridge across the Thames? Used fivers only, bargin price.
Freddy, have you been drinking? No, well I think you’d better.
No, Geoff. I’m near as damnit a teetotallers.
And I research matters before sounding off.
Better to leave others in doubt as to whether one is a fool, rather than open one’s mouth and take away that doubt, isn’t it?
So – spit it out, Geoff – are you plumping for Greening? Or Soubry?
That Bridge won’t be available for long, so I’d hurry up. There’s a queue of naive yanks waiting to buy it.
By the way, did you know that “gullible” isn’t a word found in real dictionaries?
“teetotaller”. The “s” was added by Grieve.
That’s such a charmingly naive comment, there is no chance of the Tories choosing a Brexiteer. The Times/Soros Mouthpiece is already hard at work demolishing Boris Johnson, much more to come and then they’ll turn on JRM, the knives are already out. Arron Banks might have bullied his way to some success in business but in politics he’s a blundering, useless buffoon. The ONLY way to achieve Brexit is at the ballot box, by supporting UKIP candidates and screwing up the LibLabCon cosy cartel. That was Farage’s original, brilliant plan…until the Tories offered him some sort of deal to dump UKIP.
Alas, Russell, while one or just a handful of trolls like this dear chap are amusing, hordes of them are less so, and there -are- hordes of them on social media busy telling UKIPpers that they should be signing up to the Tories…
I hope people engage their brains before following the pipers into the river.
Anyway, I phoned the Conservative Party and asked if my fish who allegedly helped put Corbyn into power – Labour Party rules failed to specify only humans could join/vote – could join, since they had no mischievous motives unlike a certain other joiner. I was told that Arron’s membership application was, on grounds they would not specify, rejected.
So blocking the great “Reform The Cons” movement failed at the first hurdle.
Marilyn, please see my post above, Nigel Farage is saying two different things at the same time. He’s lost the plot, not to be trusted.