I read with interest the recent article on “how does UKIP appeal to left wing voters” and I believe the answer is a lot simpler than some might believe.
The “Protect your jobs and benefits” message used in Wythenshawe I personally believe is a mistake of a campaign slogan. We are here to stand up for the hard working man or woman, who do their best to get by without the state’s aid and use it as a safety net, not as a cradle to grave way of living.
We must accept there is a certain type of Labour voter no party will ever be able to drag across to them. We will not appeal to those who see the benefits system as a way of life or an overgenerous welfare state as the way forward. However, there is quite a sizeable number of Labour voters who would and should be open to us, and many of whom now vote UKIP.
The Nelson, Southtown and Cobholm Division of Norfolk CC (in Great Yarmouth) is one of the poorest county wards in the whole of England, yet it has elected a UKIP Councillor at the last two county elections, in 2010 and in 2014, with 42% of the vote. Why? Because many of these voters feel let down by Labour. They have seen uncontrolled immigration in the unskilled sector curtail their chances for work and drive down their wages as many employers prefer to use employment agencies abroad to undercut the British minimum wage, or use EU directives to get extra cash for employing foreign workers, not British.
This is not just a problem for native British people in the ward, but for second and third generation immigrants who came to this country when work was plentiful. These people also see an increased demand on Council and Association housing because of the migrant influx and of course resent that they must wait so long when their parents and their grandparents have paid into the state.
The other type of Labour voter is the aspirational “white van man”, the kind of voter who Margaret Thatcher had voting for her in their droves: these are exactly the kind of people who UKIP will and do appeal to. UKIP need to show that Labour is not the Party of the working class, but of the shirking class and we must not slip into making statements like the one in Wythenshawe.
There are of course those people that vote Labour immediately after a Conservative Government and vice-versa who we must do more to show that if you always do what you always did, you always get what you have always had. As the Parliamentary Candidate for Great Yarmouth I often cite my own constituency as an example, but I believe our success over both Labour and the Conservatives in recent times is firmly down to this line of thinking and hope with continued success we can be an example to the Party as whole of how to campaign across the country.
You would get far more support in working class areas if you laid off the “law and order” spiel. Plod are useless.
I think you are well wrong bro, I have had my collar felt my the plods for offences as diverse as rape, cottaging and possessing dodgy images of children and not forgetting benefits fraud. I have to say despite those arrests I have nothing but admiration for the boys in blue. They have always been nice to me. Prison officers on the other hand………. well that’s a different story.
Cottaging? Was it near 9 Lynn Rd, PE38? Call 01366-377658 to find out or Derek Haslam’s Hotline on 07867-531288!
Spot on Matthew here in the West Midlands we have several marginal seats that change hands depending on the message being delivered.
UKIP I believe could make huge inroads because people are just like you say they are mainly working class but hard working with a desire to better themselves and are not tribal voters.
All the ingredients are there as long as we can get our message across which I believe we can.
nice one Tom . it is the same across the UK
Lets give our people a believe in them self again
I think the ‘protection of jobs’ was a mistake, you cant protect jobs unless they are public sector whcih already costs so much and with the private sector you can only seek to create the conditions for job creation.
As for protecting benefits, there are two ways of looking at that statement. You could either assume it means that you keep the system as it is or you can say yes, we will have a benefits system which will support you in a range of circumstances but those circumstances will perhaps change from the existing ones. In the second instance the principle is preserved while allowing for a change of priorities.
I actually think you could abolish unemployment benefit and replace it will full employment, ie you either find a job or you sign up to be a state employee working part time to earn the money you would have formally have received in benefits doing community work. There would obviously be exceptions for those who were unable to do any work at all. This could all be tied in with job seeking so that people didnt drop out of the working enviroment while they sought more permanant employment, the social cost of long term unemployment is terrible, not just for the taxpayer but for the unemployed too.
All that having a job created by the government to get unemployed into work would do is to get rid of most public jobs and then replace them with underpaid staff. There used to be jobs for the disabled at reemploy but it was closed, and there will always be people who can’t work.
Sorry but you are quite wrong, I clearly said the roles they should do should be community work, ie the sort of thing many voluntary organisations do because the government doesnt. How community work will somehow put most of the public sector out of work is beyond me.
You are also wrong about them being underpaid. Why would they be underpaid if they do a set number of hours for the benefit equal to that which a working person would do for an identical take home pay packet? I would peg it to whatever the minimum wage was at the time so they were on an equal footing as a person in employment.
There may well always be people that cannot work but that in no way means that you give up on people easily, nor that you allow people who are perfectly able to work to sit on benefits.
You are so negative about the disabled and unemployed, I think they deserve a chance and greater opportunities to engage and also contribute in society. You talk people down way too much, we should stop asking ourselves what people cant do and ask what they CAN do.
Presumably you are a member of the tory party as you seem to think their fascist approach to those who can not work is the right way to deal with the problem, of course when people die they are no longer a burden on the state, a lesson the nhs is safe in my hands Dave learned from the death of his son when the fiscal burden on him became less.
You are wrong about the disabled, the vast majority can not work, and to be told that they can by someone sat behind a computer who has never met them let alone examined them is a nightmare that never stops. The phrase albeit macht frei didn’t free anyone, and the phrase working for hardworking people just indicates the tory ideation that if you don’t work you are worthless, in the 30’s the germans after all killed off the disabled and needy before they started on the Jews, are you saying UKIP should adopt the same anti disabled policies?
I have never been a member of the Tory Party, guess again.
I clearly stated that there are those who cannot work who need assistance, perhaps you are illiterate?
I dont have any time for Cameron but using his son’s death as some sort of political points scoring tool is utterly disgusting, you are a shameful human being, that is the lowest of the low.
You cannot possibly know ‘the vast majority’ of disabled people but it appears you wont be happy until they are all paid to stay at home, excluded from society.
I see there are no depths you wont go to, trying to create more employment opportunities for the disabled is in no way, by any rational measure, comparable with the Holocaust. Utterly deplorable.
I do hope you stay away from UKIP, your views are not suitable for civilised society, Owen Jones called, Labour want you back.
I was replying to guest, perhaps you are either paranoid or have delusions of grandeur that I only reply to your posts. The statement “They should do community work” is clearly a tory statement, although apparently the lib dums and labour agree with it, and takes no individual needs into account, this is the despicable behaviour that is leaving the needy incapacitated and disabled unable to live a decent life, and has lead to an increase in the suicide rate.
As I understand what is written above, the community work idea is for the unemployed, not the disabled who are unable to work, it is quite clear.
Assessing whether or not someone is capable of work is perfectly justified, otherwise how would the state know who is and isnt entitled, are you suggesting people simply state they are disabled and that is enough? ATOS has clearly been a failure, but are you saying for instance that a person’s GP is incapable of making a judgement on their ability to work?
You appear very confused over the differences between an able bodied unemployed person and someone with a disability, they are separate cases which require very different approaches. This immature ranting doesnt make your case, thankfully UKIP has some more thoughtful people with disabilities that actually have intelligent ideas well worth considering.
There is no disabled unable to work in the idea the “employment support” tag sort of gives it away, everyone is supposed to be able to work according to the government and until ATOS just suddenly quit they were saying that hence people on life support and in coma’s being “assessed ” as fit for work, or the man with cancer who died before he even got a reassessment. You appear to have bought in to the government propaganda that only fit and capable people are expected to work, well those who are denied esa or have completed their one year allowance on it know different because you have to be able to work to claim jobseekers, now then the government claim they have cut the unemployed what they should be saying is we are now denying people who are unable to work any benefits at all.
As for jobseekers claimants are being sanctioned for missing a meeting with job centre staff, due to having an interview not getting a job but sanctioned for not being on time even with prior information being given as to the interview at the employers. You complete lack of understanding of the reality of the situation is in line with an average Daily Mail reader.
Barry, clearly you have many, many issues on a personal level and it is clouding your ability to understand what you are reading. Your perception is so skewd that you simply read what you want to read, your first line doesnt even make sense.
It has been said several times that ATOS has been a failure, nowhere in this entire discussion has any support for the methods the current government has used been given but you seem to have such a chip on your shoulder about it that you see everything as a conspiracy now.
You even failed to back a GP who does many years of training as capable of assessing the capability of an individual to work, perhaps in your silly world only you and you alone can make that decision, certainly sounds like it.
You have not presented a single solution, you are simply a well practiced moaner who has nothing sensible to add to the debate, I would throw out the current sustem in its entirety personally and start again, it is a mess. Unlike you, myself and many others actually try to think of what you could replace it with as opposed to your opposition without solution.
I understand the situation, I have lived it and I have spent most of my working life scraping a living together through hard work, not the long list of excuses people like you come up with for sitting on your backside. People like you support a system that means ever higher taxes for the working poor to pay for it, you dont care, retired arent you? Yeah, easy when you dont have to worry.
Oh faux psychology now what next tory boy?
You only read what you don’t see, just tell me where I have failed to back a GP of any variety?
Perhaps ion your mixed up world you think that someones GP’s and consultants, and even two atos doctors who have examined you know nothing compared to a nurse with a computer and an idiot sheet, which is how atos work capability assessments were being done.
Well I worked from the age of 18 to 50 with hardly a day off, and continued to work when I first became ill I worked as a nurse with higher level qualifications than the atos assessor who considered that he could assess someone without seeing them, so don’t come with the tory scum fascist propaganda weasel words, so tell me just what have you done for society, while I was nursing people back to health.
The working poor are getting top ups form the tax payers, in housing allowance well I have payed for my home, and if you think it is easy just try it for a week or two.
In the dying embers of World War II, a new social contract was drawn up in Britain. Freedom from poverty was made a right – a condition of citizenship. A person paid their national insurance and their taxes, and was safe in the knowledge that that they would not be made destitute
by the vicissitudes of this so-called ‘market’. Furthermore, a person who was physically or mentally unable to participate in the jobs market,would not be abandoned to the mercy of philanthropy, but the responsibility of all.
Remember that mp’s the working rich have awarded themselves a 30% increase at the same period of time nurses wages have fallen by 40%, that is your tory world, Dennis Moore, (monty python), politics, steal from the poor give to the rich, he bankers haven’t suffered for their mistakes the politicians haven’t, but the poorest most needy have taken all the blame and the cost of their greed.
Im not a Tory fella, Im am UKIP to my core, you on the otherhand are nothing more than a Labour troll hiding under the skirt of UKIP, is it not uncomfortable having the hand of the far Left pull your strings? You diminish the Holocaust and then claim some moral high ground, typical Leftist thug, no morals, all about you and what you can get out of other people.
The taxpayer never gave me a home, I started work at 14 and I saved for 16 years to buy mine outright, somewhat more than a week or two.
You didnt nurse people back to health for free did you? No, hardly an act of charity, Mother Teresa you are not, dont kid yourself you are anything more than you are, there are people who have made far greater sacrifices in this world than you.
I paid the cost, I earned more in 1998 than I do today doing the same job, I will take no lectures from anyone on the cost to those at the bottom. I see nurses today, driving better cars than I could ever afford, living in homes I will never afford and with pensions I can only dream of. I dont resent that as I dont resent footballers who earn stupid amounts of money, but dont seek to lecture me from your ivory tower son, I know what it is like because I live that life right now, not in the 70s. My generation will NEVER retire, we wont have that luxury and the state wont have the money to support us so your bleeding heart routine is a hollow one. You are lucky, shame you cant see that but then there are millionaires who dont think they have enough either, you are more like them than you know.
You most certainly are as much a tory boy as call me Dave, I have not diminished the holocaust whatsoever, just stated true facts the Fascists started on the disabled and incapacitated and honed their methodology of mass murder before starting on the Jews or are you so poorly educated you think only the Jews suffered forgetting other groups such as the gypsies, now that it a terrible thing your lack of knowledge decries what they went through.
Typical of you fascists only the rich can have a right to live in your world. You are not UKIP, you are clearly a tory boy globalist.
Presumably at 14 you were living under a bush then, as you couldn’t have got a mortgage, another fantasy on your part, next you will be telling us you spent 4 hours doing paper rounds before and after school.
Typical Tory idiot who thinks that those unable to work should just curl up and die, next you will be saying that the elderly should be culled, because they are no longer of any value in your small minded world.
If you think working your nuts off for a low income, is so easy I suggest you go and try it before you put down every nurse in the world in such a throwaway manner, after all if we just let people die there wouldn’t be such a problem with the economy that you tories blame on those least involved to cover up the reality of your greed causing the collapse of the worlds economies.
I see nurses driving cars that that are years old, and having to pay a fortune in parking charges at the hospitals they work at, but then I have more knowledge of the truth, not what you want to see for your tory ideals. Remember whilst the politicians have awarded themselves 30% increases int heir already high incomes nurses have effectively had a 20% reduction with the pay freeze on the low incomes.
I doubt you can call me son by right more a case of your tory toff attitude in that you see everyone’s being beneath you. I know what it was like through the 70’s when your tories damaged the nation and the greed years of Thatcher, your nasty party attitude should stay there while you pat each other on the back for your massive incomes made on the backs of the people being thrown out of jobs left to die with no support.
I am nothing like a greedy millionaire, I know what having to pay out for power that has got more expensive due to privatisation actually means and water rates through the roof even though it is always short inspire of huge amounts of rainfall.
I am lucky indeed I think that everyday whilst my fire is turned off and I wrap myself up to keep warm, and before you say anything about being on the net, that is my sole link with the outside world, I can’t afford to go down the pub and P it up the wall like you and your tory mates do.
I didn’t want to retire, I loved my work, and because of having to retire I now am left with far less money to maintain me, your ranting that you will never retire is as hollow as your head, no one knows what will unexpectedly happen in their life, and lets be honest with your tories allowing unfettered immigration the amount of unemployed will balloon, and the elderly will get squeezed out. So your chances of working will diminish greatly.
>>Presumably at 14 you were living under a bush then, as you couldn’t have got a mortgage <>If you think working your nuts off for a low income, is so easy I suggest you go and try it<<
I have done, all my working life, I have never earned more than minimum wage. I havent turned on my heating this entire winter and I live on £10 of food a week, is that your idea of wealth?
I will never retire because there will be no state pension when I do, anyone with a grasp of maths can see the current provision is unsustainable for my generation, that or the pension age will rise well into the 70's in the hope that my generation die before we qualify.
You seem utterly out of touch with the party you say you support, perhaps you should try reading a manifesto once in a while, you appear to think you have joined the Owen Jones fan club but in the real world hard decisions have to be made and the magic money tree that your Labour mates worship doesnt actually exist. Im not a Tory, I am an economic conservative, if you had any mature understanding of politics you would know the difference but you are a perfect example of dog whistle leftwing rubbish, all gob, no common sense and certainly no clue how to pay for anything.
Good luck when you read the 2015 manifesto, might make you choke on your biscuits, you wont be getting what you want, bank on it ( I know you love bankers! ).
Ah so you were not actually paying out when you were saving then, you were subsidised for 16 years. I had to work for mine and pay out for everything else.
You clearly are a tory troll you come here make false allegations pretend you are something you clearly are not, your economic story does not add up in anyones book.
I have no doubt I will not agree with everything in the manifesto, just as I wouldn’t with any other party, because that is never the case for anyone, other than the person who wrote it.
As an economic conservative one has to wonder how you managed to only work for the minimum wage and save up to buy a house in 16 years, unless you were at home sponging off your parents for the whole time you would have had to pay out far more than £10.00 a week to survive on, in the real world food is only part of the costs.
Subsidised by who? I rented a room while I was saving, didnt feel subsidised.
I see you cant add up. I saved just short of £450 a month for 16 years and lived on the rest, it isnt impossible, it simply requires discipline and a willingness to make sacrifices for the end goal. I dont expect you to understand, you arent the type.
I live on £10 a week on food, not total household expenditure as I very clearly stated. I also stated that figure was current, not historical so irrelevant to when I was saving for a house which stopped 2 years ago when I bought one, obviously.
Just a little help for you but £440 a month over 16 years is a shade under £85,000, plus interest which certainly in the early years was reasonable, adds more to that figure. Where I live, that is enough to buy a home outright. Not a big home but 4 walls that belong to me.
Sorry, the sums add up perfectly well, you need to invest in a pocket calculator.
So you rented a room at the age of 14 then? Sorry that can’t happen you are a tory troll go back under your rock, and leave sensible debate to those who are not such easily lead sheeple.
Oh please, I was a child, I moved out aged 17 and rented a room from then on. I see you will grasp at any straw, what kinda of weirdo are you that thinks children are sponging if they live at home aged 14. Weirdo, attacking teenagers for living with their parents, whatever next! You sound far more like a Tory than me 🙂
Nope you claimed 14 so don’t try to change it now, you claimed you did it all on your own, now we see you were living at home paying your parents a tenner a week, I was doing that in the 70’s when a tenner was a lot of money, so tory boy go back to conservative home and post on there they will believe you and think you are some sort of a hero, instead of a troll trying to tell those with more sense what to do.
I said I was saving from 14 when I started work, I didnt claim I was living on my own as a child, I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that one would naturally assume that the normal rules of when a child starts to live independantly would be applied. You really are an irrational little man arent you, say anything to puff up that big ego of yours 🙂
I note with much amusement that you havent offered a single solution to a single problem, just a miserable old man moaning about the world from behind a keyboard.
It has been fun though, ironic that there are far left eurosceptic parties that your idol Owen approves of and you chose the one party Owen hates even more than the Tories. #identity crisis.
Toodles 🙂
So if you started work at 14 that would mean you were at secondary modern and left in 1960 which would make you what 68 years old, and still a tory troll.
Haha, I was born in the Thatcher era, you can work evenings and weekends while still at school, dont you know anything?
It amuses me that you dont know who I am or why I am carrying on this silly conversation but by all means keep digging, that is the intention 🙂
So you were attempting to deliberately mislead people then I was delivering newspapers when I was 10, you were not working and supporting yourself at the age of 14, in fact you were not, you were being kept by your parents so lets have some honesty instead of your “look at me, I was great attitude” it’s liars like you that the tories use to claim show their fascist attitude works. Go back to conservative home they might believe you there.
Sir, I have read through this entire conversation and you appear to be most keen on attacking UKIP members. Might I suggest that if you are indeed a loyal member of the party you actually spend your time attacking those in opposition parties, or leave UKIP, infighting is juvenile. No one member has the monopoly on being right, not you nor anyone else, UKIP accepts different views on many policy areas and if you support the party in a genuine way, you should do the same, as should anyone else.
I suggest you read it again then, then you will see that Guest is not a member and never will be he is an out and out Tory, you will also note that he has changed from his original posting name to guest, probably to use another name as he has been found out as a troll, and that his claims are no more than fabrications.
Maybe “streben” you can inform us of your position in UKIP?
I am a branch officer and candidate.
What I read two people having a an ideological disagreement. They happen in political parties but the way they are conducted must be constructive.
Calling anyone a troll because you dont agree with them is not at all constructive, UKIP draws people from both the Right and the Left, so if you are a genuine member you need to come to terms with that, you will be surrounded by ex-Tories, some ex-Lib Dems and some ex-Labour. If you think you find it difficult, spare a thought for those of us who have to represent all those different views.
I would ask any supporter to try and leave their past political leanings behind, anyone from any of the major parties can become a Kipper and that will include people from parties that would have formally been sworn enemies. There are very few genuinely evil people in politics, this nasty Tory/nasty Labour stuff is pure tribal nonsense and it has no place in adult debate. I work with ex-Tory, Labour and Lib Dem, they are all very decent people, most people are.
If you are a branch officer and candidate maybe the branch should reconsider its position if you are willing to back a troll over someone who has been able to show that. I would consider you are one and the same as the person who posted in his own name and as guest and has now removed his name.
I havent seen any evidence of trolling, simply a difference of opinion, both opinions I have seen and heard within the membership, someone is not a troll because they disagree with you.
I work extremely hard for this party and I do not take kindly to your silly accusations, I see from your Facebook page that you are a very committed campaigner on your chosen subjects for which I will give you credit but that does not mean that you have any right to smear a UKIP candidate, we have enough attacks from the media already.
Can I ask whether you have offered your extensive knowledge of the NHS to the working group for health policy? It seems to me that would be a great use of your knowledge, if you were willing to help the party.
So I am wrong because someone who claims to be a branch officer and candidate says so even if he uses a nom de plume on the website of the party he claims to support, excuse me if I take your claims with a pinch of salt, especially as you appeared just after the original poster changed to guest which he had posted as. Yes I have a good knowledge of the NHS its history and the way that governments have been damaging it since 1981,
I offered to help my region but haven’t had a reply, I think that there are probably more votes to be gained by a good policy on health, which conlablibdum won’t do, than actually on freedom from the eussr. I believe the nhs needs to be streamlined a true bonfire of the quangos, and the trust system abolished, also the health and welfare act 2012 needs to be revoked.
” the social cost of long term unemployment is terrible, not just for the taxpayer but for the unemployed too.”
Which is pretty much what Lord T. said when it came to his thoughts about the Miners Strike.
“Those mining communities had good working class values and a sense of family values. The men did real men’s heavy work going down the pit….there were also some very close-knit communities which were able to deal with the few troublesome kids…if they had any problems they would take the kid round the back and give them a good clip round the ear and that would be the end of that.
“Many of these communities were completely devastated, with people out of work, turning to drugs and no real man’s work because all the jobs had gone.”
The argument about including the long term social costs of unemployment when heavy industry was shut down was lost years ago as the majority cheered on HMGs plans, even though the costs of hard fixed intergenerational unemployment in some areas have been immense.
I’m sorry but I can’t see many UKIPers in the Blue Mob ‘white collar’ heartlands agreeing that taxpayers cash should be used to reopen mines or support businesses in the de-industrialised areas of the North….even though it may well be cheaper in the long run than allowing unemployment.
Not suggesting opening mines, just community work, not for profit.
My understanding of the Blue Mob is that they loath the something for nothing culture of benefits but the Red Mob worry about those people being exploited for profit. Community work is a happy medium between giving something back while avoiding accusations of exploitation of the unemployed for profit.
I was making the point for all the wailing and gnashing of teeth about the cost of unemployment….perhaps it would have been far cheaper to keep the mines etc. open and run them down gradually…..
….rather than HMGs (then) policy of mass, rapid de-industrialisation which also created the perception that a huge chunk of Blue Mob MPs and supporters actually enjoyed if not actually relished seeing Red Mob communities ruined and Red Mobbers thrown out of work.
I would suggest that perception of Blue Mob behaviour is one of the reasons that,
(a) the Blue Mob will find it difficult for years to come to get the vote out in the North,
(b) UKIP HQ know that as much as the Southern Wing of UKIP may want it, there is no way that UKIP can ever be thought of as ‘Lite Blue’ Mob otherwise all those former Red Mobbers will simply not vote for ‘Tory Lite’.
That is a tricky conundrum for any party where the two ‘wings’ of the party are so far apart and view issues like welfare and employment regulations from such different viewpoints.
Trouble is the Red Mob closed a few mines themselves too.
It is a tricky conundrum certainly but they cant sit on the fence forever, the problem is that quite often people join the party bringing with them all their baggage from their former political party. I think what it comes down to is what actually works in practice, I dont care if it is a Left or Right idea, so long as it works. I always try to be open minded with any new proposal. I am especially keen on community work, I think making it easy to put back into your local area should be given a far higher status, equal in many ways to employment. In that sense I identify with the Left perhaps more than the threadbare libertarian Tory idea of looking after yourself and nobody else.
“Trouble is the Red Mob closed a few mines themselves too.”
Totally agree, but I’d suggest the perception is that the Red Mob did it, only after trying every other possible solution.
Perception is king as ever, but then the media wants UKIP to be known as a racist, homophobic party that wants to go back to 1950. Hasnt worked well for them, people dont seem to be buying into that narrative at all. The funny thing is the Tories and Labour could have changed their public perception if they were bright enough to recognise what it was that people didnt like but they are so utterly tribal that they cant see past the ends of their noses.
The Cheap Labour Party is the enemy of the working class and the destroyer of the aspirations of those who are born into it
They have been supplying the likes of Lord Sainsbury with Cheap migrant Labour since he started giving the murderer Blair donations
It is about time that their supporters woke up to what they really are , I really do feel sorry for those old boys and girls who think that the Labour party is Socialist and still vote for them based on that
Kier Hardie must be spinning in his grave
The Red and Blue Mobs have been quite keen on promoting immigration. It’s not just a Red Mob issue.
Mathew Smith is incorrect in his assumptions that adopting the tory vision of hitting the unemployed needy incapacitated and disabled is the way forewords.
As anyone who has been denied benefits under the governments schemes will tell you life is not easy, and they are not skiving or as government stats appear to say back in work. Many have committed suicide because they can’t afford to live or have become upset by the media onslaught that tells them day after day that only the tory “hardworking” people have any value.
What is needed is for UKIP to adopt a policy of reversing the disaster of outsourcing the vital utilities in the health service, to stop the deliberate underfunding of the NHS in an attempt to put it into private hands, and to show it cares about the people of Britain unlike the three old parties.
The aspirational white van man types are often to busy to vote, whereas the disabled and elderly and others out of work for various reasons are more likely to because they have the time.
Rolling the unemployed together with the disabled is not credible, they are entirely different situations, not only that but some disabled are able to work, some are not, some are retired. Simplifying a complex subject doesnt help anyone.
There is certainly a case that ATOS is useless, no doubt, but that doesnt mean that reform isnt possible and kneejerk reactions to any change dont help the debate.
On the Benefits Britain 1949 programme on C4 it was clear to see that more than 50 years ago our attitude to the disabled was not to park them on benefits as a default option but to seek to find them a productive role in society where possible.
The less people who claim benefits that dont need them, the more you can pay to those who really need more money, the only challenge in that is to find a sound method for working out who does and doesnt need them. Each and every person claiming for incapacity that infact doesnt need to is literally taking money from the pockets of those who do, money is not unlimited and any government needs to ensure that they give that money to those in genuine need.
Well that is what Universal credit was supposed to do, 50 years ago most disabled were dumped into hospitals or were kept behind closed curtains.
Have you watched the programme?
I happen to know the truth I have lost all respect for televisual reporting since I have seen the hatchet job they did on Stafford Hospital, full of lies and misconceptions despite hours of having the truth told to them.
There was no reporting element to the programme so that is somewhat irrelevant in this case.
They never report the whole truth in the media, I was stuck in A & E for 9 hours without being seen, I doubt the media would cover it unless they had an agenda, they always do. A mother was asked to do her childs medical care on a ward in my local hospital because the nurse didnt have time, bet that wouldnt be reported either. Life is like that.
Well it depends on the hospital whether your 9 hours would be flagged up as being in breach of the 4 hours after which the hospital is fined they only start the clock usually when someone from the hospital has actually seen you. although emergencies do take priority over accidents that can wait because by definition they are more important. Sometimes mothers if they have the skills are the best people to do the care as the child will not be so upset by it, any nurse refusing to do it on a time basis should be reported to the NMC as they are breaching the code of conduct, but then urban myths are common in hospitals.
They had me in a room taking my vitals. 9 hours later a doctor came in and said the doctor from the previous shift had forgotten me. Not so much as an apology.
I am afraid it is no urban myth, it was my sister, she was expected to undo an IV herself and reconnect it. The doctor on the ward demanded my sister do it so she could examine the baby in another room, the nurses were too busy.
Both hospitals under the same trust mind you, perhaps that is the clue.
I dont repeat urban myths, I speak from the experiences of people I know, few of which have been good regarding hospital stays. On the plus side cancer treatment is excellent, as is physio.
In that case the Doctor should have been reported, they are trained to do that sort of thing, and clearly if you were having your vitals taken for 9 hours, or if they were taken once clearly you were not top of the tree in needs to be seen. Nurses would have reminded the Doctor that you were there, instead of leaving you blocking a bed, babies always are treated ahead of others because they can “go off” very quickly.
I was sent in with suspected stroke, I dont know where in the tree that puts you. The baby was in a ward, not in A & E.
So you have no direct knowledge of your Sister having a Doctor “Demand” she did anything then, and clearly your “suspected stroke” didn’t cause any reasons for concern during your wait, you clearly have no inkling of anything else that was occurring so your story is about as much point as the lies told by Julie Bailey for which she got awarded a cbe for her assistance in damaging the reputation of the NHS.
Sorry but I find your statement highly offensive, calling my sister and mother liars, you are clearly one of the many apologists for the NHS who think that the institution and its reputation matters more than the patients. Absolutely disgusting and shameful, I dont know how people like you sleep at night turning a blind eye.
We only have your word for what happened, I find it highly offensive that people make these types of statements with no personal knowledge of the events, as you have stated your Sister said “demanded”, that may have been her perception of a request, these things do get lost in translation, and someone who is concerned for a baby can misconstrue what is actually being said. Anyone who has been involved in these situations will realise that.
I don’t know how people who are trying to destroy the NHS with continual repeating of fiction can sleep at night, but I have no doubt they do, some even make money out of it.
The Media are all to happy to repeat lies, as was shown with the hatchet job they did, and are continuing to do at Stafford, so I have no doubt if you went to them telling them your stories they would print it without even bothering to find out if they had credence or not, they are supporting the government in its headlong dash to sell off the nhs entirely.
That is true, the first act of the establishment to protect itself is to attempt to discredit any witness. You are nothing but an establishment stooge, I cant help but think you must have an NHS pension on the books, seems to create wilfull blindness.
What is interesting is that you appear to lack the ability to even question whether the NHS could ever get anything wrong, you dont ask whether it could have happened, only how you can discredit anyone who complains.
What I do know and you dont know is about the honesty of my family members but despite you not knowing them you have assumed they are not telling the truth, that tells me you are not an impartial commentator.
Ask yourself this, what have I got to gain by criticising the NHS? I am firmly anti-privatisation, I hate the idea as I am certain you do. The only motivation I have is that as a genuine anti-establishment thinker, I have no fear of questioning the status quo or the establishment institutions which care only for their own interests. I dont hate the NHS, but I do not believe it should ever be beyond criticism, it isnt a religion, it is a pubic service and serving the public is the only function it should be concerned with, not protecting itself like a private company would.
You are completely wrong in your assumptions, I am not questioning that any body gets things wrong, after all humans are not perfect, and medicine is more of an art than a science because a single treatment may be very effective with some but no value with others, like any aspect of live excrement occurs.
I do not work for Stafford Hospital, but I do know that the media hatchet job co-ordinated by camoran, failed candidate at Stafford for parliament, and Hunt fingers in many private health provider pies, has been a catalogue of myths and untruths.
It is odd that you have decided that the millions of patients treated very capably can be wrong because you say so.
I can cast doubt on people who complain because these days the public seem to think that lying down and screaming Compo is a good way to get money for themselves, and I believe every complaint should be properly investigated, without it being sensationalised in the media prior to that happening, and the media then refusing to apologise or correct what they got wrong.
I don’t disagree with you about quetioning the status quo with the nhs because I firmly believe the current set up of the trust system and the various unaccountable quangos is wasteful and is damaging the nhs, the health and welfare act 2012 is a disaster that will see us with a private system that ignores the most needy in due course.
I have nothing to do with Stafford Hospital, it is irrelevant to me, as is any media hatchet job, the hospitals in the trust I am talking about have long been known to be sub-standard, it is common knowledge locally.
Why do you say that I am saying millions of patients are wrong? Show me where? I know of many good NHS experiences, did you fail to read the bit where I praised cancer treatment and physio?
Just because people get good treatment it in no way excuses bad treatment, they dont cancel eachother out and good treatment should be the minimum expectation, not praiseworthy.
At no point have I suggested this should be about compensation, I have refused to claim it in the past when I had a legal case after a car accident. I loath the compensation culture, not just against the NHS but in many, many instances, the only difference with the NHS is that patients are at their most vunerable when seeking medical help whereas tripping over a paving stone should have a degree of personal responsibility aswell as the council involved.
People dont bother to complain about the NHS because the financial weight of the NHS vs one individual means it is not worth the hassle.
People don’t complain because :-
a, they have no real complaint
b, they can’t be bothered
c, they wrongly think it is a waste of time.
You claim the trust you are referring to has long be known to be substandard, may I ask by whose standards and if that is the case has it been referred to Monitor, the CQC, the DoH before Hunt abdicated all responsibility, and has it been placed into special measures?
Yes re special measures.
in that case it should be in the hands of monitor with CQC input.