Written by Robert Tombs
This article first appeared in BriefingsforBritain and we republish here with kind permission.
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Two prominent and heavyweight Remainer commentators recently took me to task over Brexit. How solid are their arguments?
The Irish journalist Fintan O’Toole and the distinguished man of letters Ferdinand Mount recently published fairly long reviews of my recent book in the Guardian (30 Jan.) and the Financial Times (30-31 Jan.) I would not presume to use Briefings for Britain to reply to criticism if it were merely directed at my shortcomings as an author, but both writers are really arguing against Brexit itself. Indeed O’Toole even concludes – in a generous if double-edged compliment — that if I am incapable, as he thinks, of setting out ‘a half-convincing case’ for Brexit, then ‘maybe nobody can.’
So how do these stalwart Remainers sum up their incontrovertible case against Brexit? O’Toole is a regular contributor of anti-Brexit columns to the Irish Times and the Guardian and the author of a popular book (reviewed in BfB) ascribing Brexit to the psychological problems of being English. He now makes, as far as I can see, two points of substance. One, that the EU is not in a state of decline – though this is not a statement he supports with any argument. The second questions democratic sovereignty, which as he says is one of my central themes. His clinching argument is ‘How can sovereign decisions be made in ignorance of their meaning?’ By ‘ignorance’, he means that people did not know what form Brexit would take and were not told that it would be what he calls the ‘most extreme imaginable’ Brexit. I am not sure where this argument takes us, other than to dispute the legitimacy of the 2016 referendum (and logically that of 1975 too, as people then did not know they were voting for an embryonic federal state).
It is not clear whether O’Toole is arguing against democracy in principle – I presume not, or at least not consciously – but as humanity is denied the gift of prophesy, all democratic choices are made in ignorance of their outcomes. To take an obvious example, if Remain voters in 2016 had known that the EU would make a disastrous hash of the Covid epidemic, many would have voted Leave. Democracies have to do the best they can with the information they possess at the time. Oligarchies and dictatorships do too, but they seem less good at it. Moreover, the ‘hard Brexit’ that emerged was at least as much due to the negotiating position of the EU as to confusion in the UK. The logical conclusion of O’Toole’s argument seems to be that leaving the EU can never be right. And if one takes that view, then (as I argue in the book) democratic sovereignty has gone.
Of course, O’Toole and like-minded readers may conclude that my arguments are not convincing ‘to the unbeliever’. But while he disputes the case for Leaving, he scarcely, if at all, hints at a case for Remaining. In the on-line version of his review, he claims that statistics I give showing that living standards in Northern Ireland are considerably higher than in the Republic are exaggerated: in fact, if anything, I underestimated them (see p 23 of this study).
Does Ferdinand Mount do any better, in his long and serious piece in the FT? He makes, I think, three substantial points. First again on the question of sovereignty, which we all agree is crucial. However, he misses the point — or at least my point. He asserts confidently that sovereignty was and is never in danger from membership of the EU, the proof being that we have left it; and he describes as ‘breathtaking’ my suggestion that EU member states may in practice have given up their sovereignty. My point is that sovereignty is a question of political fact, not just of legal theory: if through fear or constraint you are unable to exercise it, you have in fact lost it. I believe that would have been the case for the United Kingdom if the referendum vote had been blocked or reversed, as it nearly was. Even if this had been done by a vote of parliament – nominally an act of sovereignty – the effect would have been to cede real sovereignty to the EU.
Mount thinks all this talk of sovereignty and democracy is ‘baloney’ and supports this statement with the extraordinary claim that the EU really does very little and has very limited powers, because ‘no government’ of an EU state ‘is going to yield power over the things that really shift votes’, such as health. I presume this was written before the vaccine scandal, and certainly before another Italian government was replaced without an election by a Prime Minister whose qualification for office is that he was formerly head of the European Central Bank. Baloney?
So far, I have discussed the negative arguments put forward by O’Toole and Mount. Mount also gives a positive argument for the EU — two cheers rather than three: that membership wasn’t so bad economically for the UK. He accepts my arguments that the narrative of British economic weakness is a myth and that we have been outperforming the Eurozone for two decades. So, he thinks, what’s the problem? He and I are at cross-purposes here. My argument is that economic analysis provides no compelling reason why we had to remain in the EU. His argument is that it provides no compelling reason why we had to leave. My conclusion is that Leaving is primarily about maintaining democratic sovereignty. I am not quite sure what his conclusion is. That the mess of pottage was just about big enough?
He returns to a familiar Remainer theme in his closing paragraphs: the supposed neo-imperialism of Brexit. He detects ‘imperial hankerings’ in my suggestion that relations within the Anglosphere provide an alternative strategy to European integration. Do Remainers really see no difference between a free association of equal states and an empire? His final swipe is to discern in post-Brexit Britain under Johnson similarity not just to Turkey, Hungary and Brazil, but to 1930s fascism –- and this from a man who sees no threat to democracy from the EU! I think there is only one response: ‘Baloney’.
Near the end of the fifth paragraph of his article we get this from Robert Tombs : “if the referendum vote had been blocked or reversed, as it nearly was.”……….So Robert Tombs believes that the 2016 referendum vote for independence hasn’t been blocked? Then how does he explain the EU customs barrier partitioning the UK’s internal market between Britain and Northern Ireland? Having a foreign state’s customs barrier ploughing through your own internal market doesn’t sound like self-government to me.
And I’m convinced the abominable EU Arrest Warrant remains the same as before, plus stealthy introduction of EU criminal law (once known as Corpus Juris) proceeds apace. Reading the text of the Deal it is ts not clear about all this but I read recently that vaguely or badly drafted laws are passed; the vagueness then allows precedents to be set moving away from Common Law
I got to the end of this apparently “learned” dissertation and said to myself “what the hell was that all about” it seemed to me to just ask the question “when was Sovereignty not Sovereignty”?
And then I thought who cares? Well perhaps I do, but I care even more about the “why” it was necessary that this previous Sovereign nation found it imperative that it regained FULL Sovereignty ( every last bit of it) filched and surrendered in such a treasonous manner to what eventually degenerated into a band of quasi gangsters ( think Greece)
The argument of these three “Phonies” appears not to understand that the EU (not Europeans – we love them – well some of them) are the
ENEMY who have no intention of letting go every last bit of OUR SOVEREIGNTY they can cling to or persuade our lily liveried negotiating ELIE ( -only termed so by their own definition) to give the game away by the back door.
We must not forget the superb (not) holding operation instigated by our own Quisling “enemy within _ REMAIN CONSPIRACY” where they held up Brexit for over 4 years in order that any True Brexit would be a Phyric victory this delay, delay, delay tactic has resulted in the final battlefield being clothed with dead bits of Sovereignty still unreturned or worse those bits which have been wrested back have in effect been neutered into ineffectuality unable to fully perform until “details” have been agreed..
On very few occasions have the EU negotiated the Free Trade Agreement which was a requirement of the Trade section of the Withdrawal Agreement and as I have recorded above they have contributed to the prolongation of this negotiating period for over 4 years, not only have they succeeded in as I also have recorded in mitigating (for them) the return of full sovereignty, but they have also prolonged the very substantial costs this country has paid over the period of 4 years, but have evaded forfeiture of the Ransom/Blackmail sum of £39 billion which they insisted upon settlement before even Brexit could be discussed.
I would welcome the chance to read the results of a discussion by the three wise Learned Gentlemen along the lines I have outlined on the true history of why we “Deserved the return of full sovereignty”
‘Hard Brexit’ indeed. As far as I am concerned it wasn’t hard enough, and also as far as I am concerned there is still unfinished business to attend to in that respect. Johnson as we know caved in to EU demands at the very last minute. He cannot be trusted and nor can his party or government. We need to be in full control of our territorial waters now not some point in the future, and Northern Ireland is an integral part of Great Britain and therefore not part of Eire or the European Union, and should not be treated as a separate entity until such time the majority in the province decide otherwise. I am interested in having intellectural debates with people on the other side of the argument about the pro’s and cons of the matter. We had a vote in 2016 and the majority wanted to leave the EU in its entirety, and it is as simple as that. Obviously Johnson and his ilk can’t get to grips with that concept, and as such he should move over and allow someone to take over who does, and if that doesn’t occur at some point in the not too distant he and his party will be voted out of power for good.
No mention of time travel or spirit tasting then?
Burnt Toast, I am trying to behave myself after your reprimand yesterday, but I only indulge in this light hearted banter talking of whisky, Dundee Cake, Pipers, Sheep, Tardis and Timelords etc in response to TG Spokes, because in part he introduced certain aspects of these subjects in previous posts. So if he is not on here, I don’t bother writing ‘cobblers’ as you put it. He is the one who spoke of Henry II as if he knew him personally, and I’ve just enlarged upon it. TGS hasn’t been on here today, so one assumes that he is presently travelling through time and space as we speak in that Grandfather Clock of his. No doubt he will be
de-materialise very shortly…….
Now Collin seeing as you are such an addict of, was pit “Walker” Dundee Cake? I thought I would do a bit of investigating.
It would appear Messrs Walker manufacture their so called Dundee cake in Aberlour Speyside
I had a look in my Grandfather clock “Black of Brechin” and discovered back in 170ho something that one Janet Keiller, bakers and other products of the fashionable area Seagate in Dundee invented Marmalade, i.e.What was a solid lump of Seville orange peel cut with a knife, she learned to shred it at the same time she used some of the stuff shredded in a sultana cake and decorated it with Spanish blanched whole almonds.
Her company grew and grew until the cake was being sold throughout the Uk and Empire and probably a load of other countries as well.
Other bakers wanted to jump on the bandwagon, but used different commodities including black molasses to make it darker and currants and flakes of almonds.
Present day Dundee Bakers are anxious to preserve the historical roots of this product and have submitted an application to have it classed as only to be made in Dundee a similar process to Champagne only for the shampillions!
So I’m afraid your Walkers is actually a poor sham masquerading as the real deal
Incidentally re Winston Churchill he was MP for Dundee – nice to hear he stuck up for local products.
I’ve no intention of bothering to read any of the books mentioned. Just a few comments on Mr. Tombes article.
The Brexit we’ve got is not as ‘hard’ as the one we voted for (unfortunately).
Now I can understand why some people might support the EU as a better alternative than the two ‘World’ Wars. But to suggest that voting for BREXIT was a symptom of us wanting 1930’s style Fascism – BOLLOCKS is the only word.
A few other remarks:- I don’t remember the word Sovereignty figuring greatly in the pro brexit arguments but when you come to think about it, all the EU regulations introduced ostensibly about trade were taking away our sovereignty. Obviously control of our waters, seas, was not only about fishing. The N.I. protocol is obviously an infringement of our sovereignty. Then there is the invasion of our legal system.
In fact the whole lot can be boiled down to SOVEREIGNTY.
If such people like the EU so much then they should clear off and live there. I would even like them to be given assisted passage on surrender of their UK passport.
Patience. They’re probably the ones jumping to the front of the queue for the jab, and voluntarily wearing immune system damaging muzzles every time the go out of the front door; so that might take care of much of the problem …….
https://www.vernoncoleman.com/main.htm
“Do Remainers really see no difference between a free association of equal states and an empire?”
Isn’t it curious that Remainders see a hankering for Empire in much of the UK’s recent history? They simultaneously hold the view that the UK must lead the world in … well, you name it, whatever semi-suicidal policy is fashionable at the moment. You will see that I equate a reckless urge to remain in an organisation which is beyond democratic control with things like ‘we must use taxpayers’ money to home clothe and feed as many third world migrants as wish to come’, and that ‘there is no merit in any achievement of the Empire, even ending slavery and widow burning.’ I have seen no research on this, but even as a non-betting man I’d hazard a pint on there being a strong correlation.
How they keep their sanity in these circumstances is beyond me.
JF
Yes Julian. I’ve been subjected to some of this recently. Well I knew I was asking for it actually.
I asked one of the sponsors for my baptism, what she thought was wrong with the Church of England. I knew she was a Remainer and is rather proud of her Scottish ancestors!
I finished up receiving a great long list of all the supposed iniquities of our Colonial past. Don’t worry though I seem to have suitably silenced her for now.
Pam and the present Archbishop of Canterbury have been indoctrinated by Cultural Marxism. We are guilty of enslaving and otherwise tyrrannising these people, while plundering their resources.
Not only must we welcome all God’s children into our country, we MUST NOT reduce overseas aid, rather increase it!
We must allow BLM to trash our monuments and even encourage that they are all hidden away so they don’t cause offence.
We must lead the world in being carbon neutral of course.
It’s cultural marxism, I’ve decided. They think they are right and we are insane.
A bit of EU doom porn for you from Mayhar Tousi.
“EU Faces Bankruptcy As Von Der Leyen Refuses To Resign”
https://youtu.be/kEorTkQxYHc
Three guesses as to who picks up the tab……….