Brexit, the ‘Backstop’, and the question of a Second Referendum are the themes of today’s letters sent in by our readers and correspondents:
Sir,
There is a call for a second referendum. Does this mean that Parliament does not want to do what the majority of voters want? If this is so, we are no longer a democracy, we are ruled from Westminster and there are Members of the other house who are deciding what is good for us.
This may have come about by the spiteful attitude of the European Union who are attempting to make sure Britain leaving the EU does not take place or it looks painful to other countries considering the same act. I assert that the EU is not a democratic organisation and they are thinking of themselves, as are the Members of the other house. This accusation has been placed at the feet of Members of Parliament before, but this would be a pretty good example that it is true.
Now there is a movement for another referendum, so that the votes could ‘get it right’ this time. If this ends in another leave vote, then all is well, but a remain vote would mean there are two conflicting and equally valid decisions made, requiring a third referendum to decide. Best out of three? Then there may be Members of both houses that disagree with the three votes, and so on. Do we re-vote national elections if the liberal elite, for example are unhappy with the decision?
What happens in a democracy is the losing parties congratulate the winners and await further chances of winning future elections. This is called democracy.
The referendum was about leaving the EU, not leaving the EU only if the consequences were to the advantage of the UK. That would be another issue entirely, with the estimates either way entirely a guess.
Respectfully, Martin Macrae
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Sir,
Here is a message for the 544 (84%) MPs who voted for a referendum, those in the 408 (63%) constituencies which voted to leave the E.U. and the circa 600 MPs who undertook to respect the result of the referendum: If you still don’t understand what leave means, then it is time for you to leave.
Let’s make it very simple. Obeying the E.U. rule book, for as long as Brussels decides, is NOT leaving the EU. You have NO MANDATE to do that and you cannot spin it away. The only mandate you have is to REMOVE us from all forms of EU jurisdiction. We don’t need a back stop – we need back bone. So please do not procrastinate any longer. GO WTO – or in the words of Cromwell, in the name of God GO.”
Respectfully, Mr King
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Sir
When watching Mr Blair demand another referendum, it is worth reviewing his own history with such plebiscites. He held a referendum on whether there should be a Welsh Assembly and 50.3/49.7% voted in favour, with a low turnout. That result was not contested and a Welsh Assembly was formed. If that was enough for Mr Blair then, why is 52/48% in favour of Brexit, with a high turnout, not enough for him now? In fact, 408 out of 650 constituencies voted to leave the EU, with a 72% turnout. No Prime Minister or Government ever received as big a mandate. So there is no case to frustrate the will of 408 (62.8%) constituencies, because the other 242 did not vote to leave – and because Blair wants to be EU President.
Respectfully, Roger Arthur
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Sir,
Mrs May keeps trying to persuade us that the backstop is temporary under all circumstances when that plainly is not true. No amount of long speeches and tireless working are going to change this unless the actual agreement is rewritten to include unilateral withdrawal by the UK.
Mere words are cheap. Any views or assurances from the Council of Ministers have no legal effect, despite Mrs May’s views to the contrary. HOWEVER, it is not just the backstop that is the problem. The deal itself binds us more firmly into the EU than we were before. Mrs May’s comments on the security provisions of the deal make this clear. The agreement also allows the EU to send us a plethora of new charges that we will be contracted to pay immediately on receipt without right of review or question. Would any person with any common sense sign up to such obligations?
The country voted to get OUT of the EU and not to be bound further in and certainly not by any document that has no exit clause. It is astonishing that with a straight face Mrs May continues to tell us she is delivering BREXIT when she is delivering REMAIN.
We must rely on MPs not being suborned by Mrs May’s threats and the media’s wild comments and to continue to commit to voting this awful deal down. If not, then we, the electorate, will show our anger including through the ballot box at the next general election. I have written many letters to my MP and others and every BREXITEER should be doing so to their MP.
Respectfully, Tim Pope
With regards to Roger Arthur’s letter on Tony Blair and his record on referenda, may I also remind you of David Cameron and Conservatives record?
In May 2012, Birmingham voters rejected the idea of having a directly-elected mayor with a majority of 57.8% in a referendum. Also Manchester, Newcastle, Nottingham, Sheffield, Wakefield, Coventry, Leeds and Bradford voted “no”.
Fast forward to 2017, and while not a directly-elected mayor of Birmingham, Andy Street became the directly-elected mayor of the West Midlands. And other ‘combined authorities’ received new elected mayors at the same time.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-17961046
But back to Tony Blair for a moment, and a reminder of the result of the referendum he promised to hold on Britain’s acceptance of the Lisbon Treaty. That’s right, there was no result because there was no referendum. Gordon Brown just gleefully signed us up once Blair stepped down and handed over the premiership to him.
So on that basis, Tony Blair really should shut his mouth on having a second referendum on leaving the EU.
There will be a by~election in Peterborough at some point , though maybe Labour will hold off from moving the writ for it.
Will UKIP field a candidate this time ? Apparently they held off in 2017 to give the ( Leaver ) Tory a better chance ~ but it didn’t work out and Labour took the seat.
We certainly should field a candidatein this constituency if we want to start to rebuild our electioral traction and credibilty. I hope that a candidate has been or is about to be selected, and with the groundwork campaign gearing up too. We should be in with a good chance in this constituency, if we play our cards right.
What would be the sort of reaction , generally ,if the Brexiteer Members of Parliament from both sides of the House declared that to break any stalemate that still exists they would transfer their allegiance as from January 2 to ,for example UKIP ….Just a thought ,that I don’t even know is legally possible?
I’m pretty sure that constitutionally it really doesn’t matter. But UKIP wouldn’t have any idea what to dowith them if they did. nec would check them out.
Perfectly legally possible.
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” – Edmund Burke.
Where is UKIP I ask for the umpteenth time?
This from my local MP – Sir Roger Gale- ( a Tory in a 68% Leave constituency )
///A Hard Brexit of the kind advocated by those with little to lose in terms of employment or standard of living would almost certainly have a devastating short and probably mid-term effect upon our economy and prospects for employment and prosperity, and most certainly upon our security – a largely overlooked factor in these discussions.
In the chamber it became apparent, following my question to Mr. Johnson, that neither he nor Mr Mogg nor any of their supporters have, while prepared to criticise others, any viable alternative, save a ludicrous “we would negotiate better” claim, to offer. The “Norway Plus” and “Canada Plus” options would leave us as paying rule-takers without resolving other issues or delivering the reality of Brexit that a majority thought that they were voting for and Her Majesty`s Opposition, led by Mr. Corbyn, would bind us into agreements that would shackle us again without delivering on Brexit.
The idea that somehow the EU is, after two years of painstaking discussions and having, from their point of view (there are two sides to this coin) made considerable concessions, going to roll over and, just because Mr. Johnson or Mr. Davis (who has already tried) or Mr. Raab (who has already tried) or Mr. Corbyn (who has been trying to negotiate behind the PM`s back) or anyone else, is on the other side of the table, going to deliver a significantly different or better deal is moonshine.////
It’s exactly the same as the millenium bug. .Everybody goes to work, nothing will change. NOTHING. Those who say otherwise are demented. No body is going to walk out of their jobs without cause. There will ( As allways ) be a few foolish virgins. Any disruption that may occur will be as a result of the gov’t or civil service determined to show us who’s important.
I.ve just watched baby Kinnock on the parliament Channel. His main beef about No Deal seems to be that he will have a lot of work to do in parliament to catch up on 43 years of doing nothing.
I’m afraid that we have an impasse. Mrs May’s government has manifestly failed in making any progress in negotiations with the EU and now the electorate, whether they be Remain or Leave, have been let down miserably. We have now reached the point where we are just 100 days away from leaving, but apart from a ‘Withdrawal Agreement’ which suits no one, May has got nowhere. She MUST go.
Although the 2016 Referendum was a so-called ‘binary’ decision – stay or go – and the Government itself sent out advice to all households to Remain, the Referendum result was clear and the Conservative government FAILED to deliver. It is now FAILING to deliver the categoric policy of ‘ no-deal is better than a bad deal’ laid out in May’s winning 2017 manifesto. She MUST go.
Given that things are so bad now that the Health Secretary boasted of being ‘the World’s biggest fridge buyer’ and the Army has been to make plans for unrest and chaos, it IS now time to take the whole issue to the country again. She MUST go.
We need a General Election in early February to decide once and for all which direction the country is going in. NO new Referendum as that is a democratic no-no. An election gives all parties the opportunity to propose in great clarity the direction they intend to go. It forces the Tories to either propose a ‘hard Brexit’ or wimp out, and we can vote accordingly. It forces Corbyn to make a decision on which way Labour goes rather than sit on the fence and bleat. It will force Kippers into hard and final choices on whether to vote tactically or to waste their votes.
There is no getting away from this crisis. It’s coming. That Parliament is indulging in a lazy 3 week recess is beyond a joke. Running down the clock is a betrayal to US ALL.
We need a consensus for an election. To do that we have to have a supermajority in Parliament, and that’s what I’m lobbying for. ( BTW don’t bother with e-mails or pro-forma letters to your MP, they get ignored. Put pen to paper and use a postage stamp. )
We’ve already had a general election, in 2017 following the 2016 referendum. 85% of the votes cast were for parties that promised to uphold the referendum result, including leaving the SM, CU & ECJ. Parliament has now been twice told to leave the EU. Another referendum or general election would be nothing more than an attempt to subvert the democratic will of the people.
We have in May a PM who is already subverting the democratic will of the people. The only way to get rid of her now the Tories will not is for a ‘supermajority’ vote or a no-confidence motion.
Of course
The EU hs shown how you can ignore the first vote, then another, then another, then another and the prime minister will ignore it and force them to stay. Being law abiding and exhausted by this display of aristocracy of power. Nothing happened. Other governments have done the same.
Be ready for this to happen again. EVERYBODY in power, paid by government , or otherwise useless or pointless but kept by tax ,will opt for no change. The rest will see change for the worse .
Other countries and the EU see the ballot box as a delay or corruptable. So do socialists. and our leaders. It puts off theGuillotine for 6months or a year. ( And the horse may speak ). Ordinary marches ,demos, and all the other vaguelly effectual tactics. We need change from misuse of taxes ( Or whatever they happen to call them ) for personal wealth and its excuse.
Which brings me to my next point. What is Gerard, ukip and its own aristocracy, doing today with it’s 26,000 members.
Another unnoticed speech perhaps. Or maybe a small donation, or should we wait for some election or other using our 0.001 % of the vote.
Nigel was a thousand % right to spend every penny UKIP had..:- . It worked.!
We could be if you like setting up a workshop churning out Poster Trucks. I was going to do this but blocked along the line somewhere. It was a secret I was told.
We could be renting out public adverising like Billboards ,etc
The Ideas are there . It’s normal human ingenuity
Is it that it is not Political.
I once covered the underground with advertising .. It was unbelievably cheap., This is just one way There are many others just waiting to be used. And paid for. Someone once said leading is choices. But the public have to be softened up before elections.
26000 members is power. Use it don’t sit on it’
And as for the UKIP website. !
A good word vaguelly dont we think. It brings up images of Welly throwing er giving it welly
Every where you look in the UK is evidence of decay,Universal credit being witheld or delayed or paid in a way to save cash balances, Charging for education for our own, The creation of invented industries such as HR and the agencies, Health and Safety, Compliance, The virtual halving and Cutting of Police and Defence budgets, The inability to reduce the Defecit, The desire to use GDP instead of GDP/PC… All these things and many, many ,many others others are a sign that. They dare not say that Britain has been so badly managed in the simplest and corrupt way, by misapropriation of taxes. For ballooning Civil service and bribery by appointment to inapropriate positions etc.To the extent that taxes have been killing jobs for 50 years. This shows how the EU has sucked us dry. Everything made in the UK is in the region of 80 % TAX
When we leave we have to start repairing this theft.
Spokes I appreciate your comments, but the item that has made the most impression on me is “Everything made in the UK is in the region of 80% Tax”
That is news to me , I haven`t come across that one before, but if it is widely publicised and substantiated by hard evidence and explanation would be a valuable tool in explaining to the nation exactly WHY it is necessary to leave the EU, because I am pretty sure 80% of the population haven`t a clue what are the actual silken cords that ties us to the EU
Any chance of publishing an article on here?
I`m pretty sure Viv would approve
Thomas, What fantastic ideas. I long to be involved in doing something! The apathy is killing me.
It seems that it is all the grassroots members whom want to be geeing up and warning the public just how much is at stake now. So many have no idea of just how much all our politicians have lied to us.
I am in absolute despair over Ukip. Gerard Batten has sent us Ukip members, a Leaders Update email, in which he has stated that they are having a well-deserved Christmas break. They will resume the fight in the New Year. What damn fight? Once again, we are lost in the wilderness, without the powers that be in this Political Party, organizing and rallying the troops. Parliament gets to vote on May’s deal 14th to 21st January 2019. We need to be out there, warning people of what she is proposing. And of all the contents of all the other Treaties. The Public are ignorant of just how much the Lisbon Treaty gives to the E.U. How we will be left with nothing. We will be broken and completely broke. And subjected by our own military. We need our Army to revolt and join in the Revolution. Then the people will finally start to see for themselves.
“I am in absolute despair over Ukip. ”
So am I. I had a look at the “For Britain” website yesterday. It was easy to find a statement of policy, short and to the point, little of which I could disagree with.
My worry is that any future vote will be split between the various anti-EU / globalist parties and hand victory to the enemy within. We need to set our differences aside and work together to depose government and save our country.
There must be many of us who could give time to the building of poster trucks along with the necessary skills…
Low rent workshops can still be found or maybe a UKIP member has a barn we could use.
I had an email card from Gerard implying that UKIP had closed down for Christmas and the New Year, so I think that answers your rhetorical question Spokes..
Very little, I wonder if that interrupts the mammoth task of counting in the new members or has the rush died off now?
We are war with the enemy within, albeit not formally declared. Do people take time off during a war?
In response to Tim Pope’s final para: I wrote to my MP (Tory, extremely safe seat in a remainer area !) asking him to reject May’s dreadful deal. He is not willing to do so.
He said in passing, in his reply, that he did oppose a second referendum: if it resulted this time in a Remain result, he said, and we remained in the EU at this late stage, “we would be made to pay a steep price for doing so, and it’s not unimaginable that the price of our continuation in the EU would be to accept the Euro and forfeit our other opt-outs”
Well brownie points to him for opposing a 2nd referendum. But isn’t there a flaw in the logic here? wouldn’t we somehow get sucked into the Euro by 2022 as per Lisbon Treaty, whatever May’s cobbled-up deal tries to imply?, Surely the ONLY way to escape it is to make a clean break now.
Tories in extremely safe seats are only interested in their extremely safe seats and getting home for their 3 week Christmas break. They really don’t care about whether we leave the EU or not, they are just in it for the perks. Like our invisible UKIP MEPs ( and the ones that defected ) in the EU.
However no one will be immune from the chaos that will come unless the Government actually does something definitive.
Waiting Is Not An Option….
John Major was told he had a watertight opt-out from the Working Time directive, and look how well THAT worked out…